D&D 5E The evolution of Charisma and Wisdom

[StAlda]

1st Ed
Wisdom: Wisdom is a composite term for the character’s enlightenment,
judgement, wile, will power, and (to a certain extent) intuitiveness.
Charismo: Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical
attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism.
5th Ed.
Wisdom: Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to your surroundings, representing general perceptiveness, intuition, insight, and other, less tangible senses.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to influence others and the strength of your personality. A high Charisma suggests a strong sense of purpose, whereas a low Charisma indicates a less self-­‐assured personality.

So what Ability Score do we use for the character’s enlightenment,
judgement, wile, will power? Perception has taken over.

What Ability Score do we use for the character's combined physical
attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism. Self-confidence has taaken over.

The 800 lb gorilla in the room may be we need 8 ability scores. Break Perception out into its own and return Wisdom to it original intent. With Charisma, leave it with its new definition, but add an Appearance score.

I think the Wisdom/Perception breakout is rather self evident.

Anyone who has ever gone to a bar (or any other social setting) can see what a person's appearance does to those around them - both positive and negative. They may have low 5e Charisma, but it will take time to figure that out (unless it's REALLY low). Strength of personality is separate from appearance, just look at Hollywood or inversely your favorite politician. Chances are Charisma and Appearance do not meet.

I very much doubt WotC will go to 8 attributes, but what do you think? Good enough for a houserule?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Well, there are a lot of ways of doing it. I mean sure, you could split Wisdom into Perception and Willpower (or Judgment or still call it Wisdom). And you could split Charisma into Personality and Attractiveness.

But you could also split Dexterity into Reflexes and Coordination. I mean, what does your ability to aim a ranged weapon have to do with your ability to dodge blows? Constitution could be split into Toughness and Endurance. Intelligence could be split into Memory and Reason. The only one that doesn't jump out at me as splittable is Strength, but I'm sure that it is.

If anything, I'd suggest you look at the 2e variant for subability scores that split all the ability scores into two.
FWIW, I liked that variant.

 

[am181d]

In some of my homebrewed/houseruled games, I've changed the last two stats to Observation and Personality specifically to highlight this difference. In my opinion, we don't need stats for (a) how clever you are or (b) how attractive you are. Cleverness is largely a function of player ability and attractiveness needs, at most, a feat, but is really more of a role-playing concern.

Admittedly, there are some biases in the above based on my preferred play style.

 

[B.T.]

The 800 lb gorilla in the room may be we need 8 ability scores. Break Perception out into its own and return Wisdom to it original intent. With Charisma, leave it with its new definition, but add an Appearance score.

Nope.

 

[Dragoslav]

I think Charisma should just be a catch-all for "force of personality/confidence (which includes willpower) and personal magnetism" and "general physical attractiveness," and that Wisdom should have all of the intuitiveness and whatever. It would be a much more interesting system to have all of the stats split between physical and mental attributes, but that "wouldn't be D&D" and would require a total rewrite.

 

[DonAdam]

It's safe to assume that the D&D 6 will be sacred cows except in advanced, optional rules modules. I think it is wise to just take that as a constraint.

That said, I have some sympathy with your point. I once house-ruled d20 Star Wars stats to be:
Strength - melee damage + Con; could be called Brawn
Agility - melee attack + dodging
Perception - ranged attack, piloting, etc.
Intelligence - same
Charisma - personality and willpower
Force - bonuses to Force point uses and Force skills

 

[Ratskinner]

It's safe to assume that the D&D 6 will be sacred cows except in advanced, optional rules modules. I think it is wise to just take that as a constraint.

That said, I have some sympathy with your point. I once house-ruled d20 Star Wars stats to be:
Strength - melee damage + Con; could be called Brawn
Agility - melee attack + dodging
Perception - ranged attack, piloting, etc.
Intelligence - same
Charisma - personality and willpower
Force - bonuses to Force point uses and Force skills

I've recently been musing about using:

Brawn - Big and Strongness
Grace - Moving without looking silly
Cunning - Practical, skillsy smarts
Lore - Academic smarts
Grit - Mental toughness and inherent paranoia
Charm - Ability to make others like you

Of course, that assumes that I ever get around to making an "Indie" version of D&D, which, between Dungeon World, Old-School Hack, and FATE Core I probably never will.

 

[Kobold Stew]

For Appearance, read Comeliness, which was added as an optional stat in Unearthed Arcana for AD&D in the mid-80s.

It didn't catch on. There are many reasons for this: among them, though, is it just gives an extra dump stat for everyone.

 

[Ratskinner]

The 800 lb gorilla in the room may be we need 8 ability scores. Break Perception out into its own and return Wisdom to it original intent. With Charisma, leave it with its new definition, but add an Appearance score.

The six are certainly a sacred cow.

Personally, I think such distinctions can easily be handled with a few feats or as part of a background (perhaps even a thieving scheme...do we still have those?)

At times, I wonder whether we really need Ability Scores at all, but y'know ... moo.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I generally let players decide on their character's appearance independent of Charisma. If they want to be stunning, but don't have the Charisma to back it up, they just get hit on all the time by those who don't follow up on their promises.