D&D 5E The evolution of Charisma and Wisdom

StAlda

Explorer
I disagree. I think in, general, abilities get weird when disabilities come into play. For example, let's say a rogue with 18 Dex has his hand chopped off. Does his Dex go down?

I think think disabilities like the ones you've mentioned should not change ability scores, but they should "trump" the ability score in the specific cases where the disability comes into play.

So the blind monk, even if he has an 18 Wis, automatically fails if the task requires sight. (Or takes extra penalties.)

And I disagree with that, total darkness or blindness should reduce Perception. If it is permanent then so is the penalty. A thief with a missing hand is great with tasks that require one hand, otherwise severe loss to dex for climb as an example.

So we disagree - nothing wrong with that. This is kinda what makes D&D so great. We have our own games under one umbrella. (edition wars be damned)
 

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GX.Sigma

Adventurer
So what Ability Score do we use for the character’s enlightenment,
judgement, wile, will power?
Wisdom, of course (except that last one overlaps a bit with Charisma).

What Ability Score do we use for the character's combined physical
attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism.
Persuasiveness and personal magnetism are Charisma. Physical attractiveness does not need to be a numerical stat in the game, because:

  1. Would you ever make Comeliness-based attack rolls, checks, or saving throws? if not...
  2. Why would anyone ever put any points into it?
  3. It can't really be expressed as a single number (Orcs and Vampires have very different tastes).

Not to mention... you know, the obvious reasons.
 

Szatany

First Post
I disagree. I think in, general, abilities get weird when disabilities come into play. For example, let's say a rogue with 18 Dex has his hand chopped off. Does his Dex go down?

I think think disabilities like the ones you've mentioned should not change ability scores, but they should "trump" the ability score in the specific cases where the disability comes into play.

So the blind monk, even if he has an 18 Wis, automatically fails if the task requires sight. (Or takes extra penalties.)

I agree with you that blindness is a bad example here, but I also agree with GSHamster that Wisdom, like no other attribute, suffers from a big disconnect between its components. Perception should definitely, in my opinion, be separate from the power of will. They simply have nothing in common. Moving will to charisma is simple, as charisma represents the "force of personality" anyway, so a jump from there to mental resistance is minor. Perception is, however, more problematic, because it doesn't deserve to be an attribute on its own. Maybe if it got initiative and ranged attacks, then yes, sure. But in such case it would have to be renamed from Wisdom to something else.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I agree with you that blindness is a bad example here, but I also agree with GSHamster that Wisdom, like no other attribute, suffers from a big disconnect between its components.
So you don't agree with my initial examples? There are clearly more than six ways of describing one's innate characteristics, and Wis/Cha certainly have a lot of confusion surrounding them (will save to resist?), but I think that most of the numbers on a D&D character sheet are composites of disparate concepts. It's the sacrifice we make in the name of playability.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
The thing I've always disliked about appearance scores is that one of the great aspects of D&D is the ability to imagine your character any way your choose. You can be a sexy, busty bar-wench...with low charisma, and you can be a silver-tongued devil who looks like he had too many run-ins with the wrong end of a horse but have a high cha score. I don't like game mechanics that attempt to tell you the specifics of your character's appearance. Sure, you're an elf, you're usually slim and have pointy ears and strong facial features.

What's worse is that "good looks" are subjective. Can my character look like Kate Moss, whom I find totally hot and have an 18 cha? Or does she have to look like J-lo? Can by wizard look like Gandalf and still be considered sexy? Is it an old-guy kinda sexy or does he have to look like Orlando Bloom with a beard? Does being old automatically mean I'm less attractive? Does being young guarantee I'm pretty? What if I think self-confidence is amazingly, incredibly, super hot?

Let players decide their looks. Let the game determine how well they can use them.

Personally I think Charisma has picked up those "willpower" aspects of wisdom, and I'm fine with that. But I do generally think wisdom represents your self-enlightenment AND general awareness.

Personally....I ignore what games say the mental stats represent. It's too subjective.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
1st Ed
Wisdom: Wisdom is a composite term for the character’s enlightenment,
judgement, wile, will power, and (to a certain extent) intuitiveness.
Charismo: Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical
attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism.
5th Ed.
Wisdom: Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to your surroundings, representing general perceptiveness, intuition, insight, and other, less tangible senses.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to influence others and the strength of your personality. A high Charisma suggests a strong sense of purpose, whereas a low Charisma indicates a less self-­‐assured personality.

I actually hadn't read the new definitions of wisdom and charisma, but I have to say they're my favorite ever. They do a great job of explaining exactly what aspects are important to being good at the things those ability scores are used for in-game.

For example, the most "charismatic" people in real life would probably be politicians, preachers, cult leaders, etc. To be great at those things, you don't need to be particularly attractive (though it can help), but you DO need a sense of purpose and a forceful personality. And it makes perfect sense that on top of influencing others, these qualities would help you resist magical mind control, and would make you more effective at channeling magical energies that threaten to overwhelm you (like a sorcerer).

What Ability Score do we use for the character's combined physical
attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism. Self-confidence has taaken over.

Huh? The only part of the 1e definition that isn't necessarily included in the 5e definition is attractiveness, which I think is great because attractiveness isn't a necessary part of any D&D skill, except maybe Profession: Modeling. You can persuade, etc. without being pretty. Whether your character to be attractive or ugly is up to you, like gender and eye color, I'd say.

As for wisdom, the new definition makes WAY more sense to me than any previous definition. This way wisdom covers spot/listen, but also insight (your ability to read people) and divine attunement (your "sixth sense" that lets you get closer to the supernatural). And it maps on to reality fairly well IME - my wife, for example, is a super-attentive person, which makes her great at reading people, but also great at spotting tiny details or hearing soft sounds (despite the fact that her vision and hearing aren't physiologically any better than mine).

So what Ability Score do we use for the character’s enlightenment,
judgement, wile, will power? Perception has taken over.

Wisdom means being attuned to your situation enough that it's not easy to trick or fleece you: to that degree, it covers judgment, wile, and willpower. But charisma gets to take over parts of "willpower," because some situations (like mind control effects) are more about directly challenging your sense of purpose, while others (like charm effects) are about misleading that sense of purpose. So an archetypical blackguard might have a high charisma but low wisdom, since they're dedicated and self-assured but easy to tempt or corrupt. (This mirrors the mechanical distinction they're having to make in 5e by splitting the Will save into Cha and Wis and even Int saves.)

"Enlightenment" is a very vague term that we're probably better off without. If you include "enlightenment" as a criterion of high wisdom, then why are there so many high-Wis clerics of greedy or evil gods? If, on the other hand, you take "wisdom" to mean "sensitivity" or "attunement," it makes perfect sense for someone who is powerfully attuned with a dark god to have high Wisdom. And shouldn't a good-aligned barbarian or whatever be able to be spiritually enlightened despite having a low Wisdom score?
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
The problem I have with wisdom and perception under the same stat is that they are too far apart for one title. A blind monk that can't taste or smell can have 18 Wisdom (willpower, intuition), would you say he has an 18 perception. Plus it causes havoc with stereotype thieves, low willpower, great perception.

I think that physical disabilities (like blindness or poor eyesight) should incur penalties or automatic failure when appropriate, but despite this is works well with genre archetypes for a "wiser" character to be better at noticing and interpreting what sensory data he DOES receive. It even makes sense that a high enough Wisdom score might counteract much of that physical handicap. Google "Zatoichi" if you want to see how a blind monk can still be extra perceptive. ;)
 

StAlda

Explorer
Here is my breakout of skills
Actually, I prefer the way playtest 1 had it, assign an ability score to a skill at the time of use.

Animal Handling
Charisma

Bluff
Charisma

Climb
Dexterity or Strength

Diplomacy
Charisma or Appearance

Find and Remove Traps
Find: Perception, Remove: Dexterity

Insight
Wisdom

Escape Bonds
Dexterity or Strength

Intimidate
Attribute determined by situation

Lore
Intelligence

Open Locks
Dexterity

Sleight of Hand
Dexterity

Spot
Perception

Stealth
Dexterity

Streetwise (Gather Information)
Appearance

Survival
Wisdom

Track
Perception
 
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triqui

Adventurer
It's not going to happen, the Six are a big sacred cow.
IF they weren't, I'd go with 8 ability scores:
Fighting, Stregth Agility and Constitution (the old "FASE" from FASERIP in Marvel Super Heroes) as physical stats
and:
Intelligence, Intuition, Spirit and Charisma as the mental stats (with spirit being a measure of willpower, soul, and attunement with the supernatural, and charisma being force of personality)
 

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