D&D 5E The evolution of Charisma and Wisdom

[Ahnehnois]

Grit - Mental toughness and inherent paranoia

Grit = inherent paranoia? Are you sure about that one?

 

[Ratskinner]

Grit = inherent paranoia? Are you sure about that one?

Sure Its the paranoia that keeps you from getting surprised!

Okay, Okay, some people like to "hero" it up by calling it Awareness or something like that.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Sure Its the paranoia that keeps you from getting surprised!

Okay, Okay, some people like to "hero" it up by calling it Awareness or something like that.

par·a·noi·a [par-uh-noi-uh] noun
1. Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.
2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

Paranoia is by definition irrational. If there are actual threats and you are generally recognizing them correctly, that's something different. Or, to put it another way, you're not paranoid if they (the inhabitants of D&D's monster manual) really are out to get you.

From a medical perspective, I was just struck by that statement; I would describe an inherently paranoid person as someone who is not mentally tough (without putting value judgments on it either way). Maybe in Call of Cthulhu paranoia would full under a Wisdom-like ability score.

 

[Ratskinner]

Paranoia is by definition irrational. If there are actual threats and you are generally recognizing them correctly, that's something different. Or, to put it another way, you're not paranoid if they (the inhabitants of D&D's monster manual) really are out to get you.

From a medical perspective, I was just struck by that statement; I would describe an inherently paranoid person as someone who is not mentally tough (without putting value judgments on it either way). Maybe in Call of Cthulhu paranoia would full under a Wisdom-like ability score.

While I don't want to get too far into the weeds analyzing the psychology of D&D characters..thinking about what kind of person would really engage in the practices that PCs regularly undertake...I have no problem ascribing mental illness descriptors to them. I mean, yeah, the Goblins are out to get you. On the other hand, you are invading their home and slaughtering them without mercy to make next month's rent.

 

[nightwalker450]

I've always viewed Wisdom as "Experience" vs. Intelligence as "Education". So someone with more experience is generally more perceptive (you walk blindly into enough ambushes, you'll start to be more careful), as well enough spells cast on you, you are more prepared to resist them.

With personal appearance part of Charisma, I usually don't let personal appearance matter, unless someone has stated specifically that their character is towards one extreme or the other. I usually just use race/sex as far as appearances go... Especially if you're not dealing with someone of your own race.

 

[StAlda]

I know about Comeliness, I had characters before the Dragon Mag article - let alone Unearthed Arcana. And yes it was a dump stat in many ways, but that was the fault of the designers not the players.

I have my 5e campaign running with 8 stats and this is how I separated Charisma and Appearance (named that because of the issues previously with Comeliness).

Charisma is Leadership, force of will, self confidence. Used for things like Command, spells/abilities that direct combat, Bluff, negotiating a truce, delivering an inspiring speech.

Appearance is physical looks and social graces. Used for bartering for an item, flirting to get your way, getting someone to divulge a secret, gain entrance to a guarded entrance.

Sure there is some overlap, but that is true with many abilities, Strength to Intimidate for example.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sure Its the paranoia that keeps you from getting surprised!

Okay, Okay, some people like to "hero" it up by calling it Awareness or something like that.

i think vigilant or cautious may be a better word here. Those suggest reasonable preparedness for danger. Whereas paranoid suggests an unreasonable response to perceived dangers, as well as a possible misfocus (i.e. preparing for the 'inevitable brownie invasion of Kardale while ignoring the actual orc horde on the border).

 

[Ryujin]

I know about Comeliness, I had characters before the Dragon Mag article - let alone Unearthed Arcana. And yes it was a dump stat in many ways, but that was the fault of the designers not the players.

I have my 5e campaign running with 8 stats and this is how I separated Charisma and Appearance (named that because of the issues previously with Comeliness).

Charisma is Leadership, force of will, self confidence. Used for things like Command, spells/abilities that direct combat, Bluff, negotiating a truce, delivering an inspiring speech.

Appearance is physical looks and social graces. Used for bartering for an item, flirting to get your way, getting someone to divulge a secret, gain entrance to a guarded entrance.

Sure there is some overlap, but that is true with many abilities, Strength to Intimidate for example.

Like most it was only a dump stat, if you couldn't find a use for it. As it dealt with initial impressions I had a thief who used it for quick & dirty con games, rather than the long and drawn out ones. Flash a smile and joke your way past the guards, instead of taking 10 minutes to explain that you need to get through so that you could get medicine for your sick grandmother sort of thing.

I just choose to define the stats the way that I want to, rather than being saddled with the tyranny of a few written words. Wisdom is an amalgam of knowledge, perceptive ability, and native horse sense. Charisma is a blend of physical attractiveness, force of presence ("The Look of Eagles", in E.E. 'Doc' Smith's words), and persuasive ability. In a world where you can have a 18 Charisma Kobold, you pretty much have to toss out the physically stunning adventurer meme, as standing on its own. You could be a slug who can charm nuns out of their habits (Henry Kissinger), or a stunning social dud who people fall all over themselves to please (Naomi Campbell). The results are the same, as is the Charisma score.

 

[StAlda]

The problem I have with wisdom and perception under the same stat is that they are too far apart for one title. A blind monk that can't taste or smell can have 18 Wisdom (willpower, intuition), would you say he has an 18 perception. Plus it causes havoc with stereotype thieves, low willpower, great perception. They need to split bad, and in my campaigns they always will. I'm just surprised WotC hasn't figured their way out of this mess - the red flag should have been playtest 1 - a thief with 8 wisdom. I'm fine with that, now give him 16 Perception, don't change the skill system to fix a broken Attribute.

 

[GSHamster]

The problem I have with wisdom and perception under the same stat is that they are too far apart for one title. A blind monk that can't taste or smell can have 18 Wisdom (willpower, intuition), would you say he has an 18 perception. Plus it causes havoc with stereotype thieves, low willpower, great perception.

I disagree. I think in, general, abilities get weird when disabilities come into play. For example, let's say a rogue with 18 Dex has his hand chopped off. Does his Dex go down?

I think think disabilities like the ones you've mentioned should not change ability scores, but they should "trump" the ability score in the specific cases where the disability comes into play.

So the blind monk, even if he has an 18 Wis, automatically fails if the task requires sight. (Or takes extra penalties.)