D&D 4E Pemertonian Scene-Framing; A Good Approach to D&D 4e

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Johny3D3D... but what if you don't know what that lock is going to be? Referencing my example, the lock could be two of the three you mentioned. If the Pc's defeat the chymeric vermin, and adeptly disable the trap on the door without setting off the damaging effect... well then they have all the time in the world to work at the lock part and I guess it becomes a speedbump (but again what DC am I setting it at). If the combat goes bad, the PC's try to escape through the door and the trap goes off and begins damaging them, well now the lock is similar in nature to your 3rd example (and again what DC is the lock?). How do I know, except for the second example which can be decided beforehand by the DM, which role the lock will play?
 

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Johny3D3D... but what if you don't know what that lock is going to be? Referencing my example, the lock could be two of the three you mentioned. If the Pc's defeat the chymeric vermin, and adeptly disable the trap on the door without setting off the damaging effect... well then they have all the time in the world to work at the lock part and I guess it becomes a speedbump (but again what DC am I setting it at). If the combat goes bad, the PC's try to escape through the door and the trap goes off and begins damaging them, well now the lock is similar in nature to your 3rd example (and again what DC is the lock?). How do I know, except for the second example which can be decided beforehand by the DM, which role the lock will play?

For what it's worth, my personal style is probably more similar to yours in that I enjoy sandbox play.

However, if you're scene framing, it's my understanding that you will have decided the details of the lock ahead of time depending upon what you've already decided about the purpose of the scene.

That being said, there is overlap. It's possible for the lock to fall into multiple categories, and it's also possible that the lock could change categories depending upon how the scene plays out.
 

Maybe this is the disconnect that I'm having with this style of play... Why am I deciding a "purpose" for the picking of the lock? I guess, the purpose of the lock is to stop people from getting into a particular space and I put it there because in the context of the setting it would logically be there... so the purpose of picking the lock is to get into thespace it protects? Or maybe I am not understanding the question. Are you saying the difficulty of the lock shouldn't ever be an objetive thing but that I as DM should change it based on... what exactly?

I'll try to explain with an example that might make more sense in context.

When a DM creates an encounter he is determining whether that encounter is going to be a cake-walk, level appropriate, hard, or an overwhelming encounter as part of his encounter design assumptions. Within any given encounter he can use a varied level of creatures, traps, hazards and features. He has complete control of what the group faces as opposition/challenges. In this example he's already decided that he wants to use a "Hard" encounter. He might decide that the following mix is "Hard" based on the encounter guidelines - 3 skirmishers at Level, 2 Brutes at Level +2, and one Elite Controller at Level. He looks at it, and thinks that it's a little flat. So, he makes the Elite Controller a Level-1, and adds a trap at level +4. He then decides to cap it off with an environmental hazard at Level-1. This might be all, or just part of what the DM does when he decides to prepare this particular encounter. Which he has already decided is going to be a "hard" encounter.

Adding a "lock" to an encounter kind of follows in turn. The above DM decided to add a trap, and an environmental hazard for his own reasons - for a purpose. He also decided to lower the level of the controller when he added the trap. He purposely selected elements that he saw as "fit for this encounter." The same way that adding a "lock" is something added purposely.

It is the DMs "job" to determine what purpose that lock serves in the encounter. In "story" terms the lock serves to protect a section, as you mentioned. It's a "story" obstacle. However in simple mechanical game terms the "lock" is an obstacle designed to eat up resources, in this case actions. Because if an obstacle doesn't eat up resources in some form is it really an obstacle? In story, the DM decided to put an obstacle to reaching that "protected section." He could have chosen a chasm that must be crossed, at trap filled corridor, or a monster that opposes the party. Each of these elements could serve the same "story" purpose of "protecting what's beyond". The "lock" serves the same story purpose. But by selecting one mechanical element over another the DM has also decided how "mechanically difficult" it is to get to that protected section. A monster has a level. If the DM uses that he has already decided on a "mechanical" level of difficulty. Because a level X monster is usually easier to defeat than a Level X+5 monster. The same applies to any mechanical element chosen. If I want that particular element to be hard, I might choose Level+X. If I want to make it easy, I might choose Level-Y.

But all monsters of the same level are not created equally. They don't offer the same "level" of challenge. There might be times when you want to tweak that. Obviously, a level X skirmisher is less challenging than a level X elite skirmisher. The same way that not all obstacles of the same level are created equally.

That is one of the reasons why you also have a difficulty "quality" (easy, moderate, hard) in addition to a difficulty level to a challenge. You select the level of the challenge based on it's assumed difficulty. If you want it to be challenging you default to the same level. Because the base assumption is that same level challenges are "challenging." Then you decide whether that particular challenge is going to be easy, moderate, or hard (minion, standard, elite as a monster example). In the case of the lock you could equate that with it's basic physical quality (poor, average, masterwork). So selecting a particular "lock" is based on that "framework".

However, you could decide that getting to the protected area is much more than just an obstacle. You can decide that that the real purpose of the obstacle is not just to slow the characters, but to increase tension. There might be an unreachable trap shooting bolts of lightning as you try to by-pass the lock. You might have goblins firing arrows, as you descend the dilapidated stairs of Khazad-dûm. Or another imagined challenge. In that case you could create an entire skill challenge with the purpose of getting to the "protected area". The lock being simply one, or multiple of the obstacles that eat up resources (actions). Somebody might decide to smash the door in, rather than pick the lock, somebody might decide to burn the door, etc.

The reason I really like the way that 4e does this, is that they provided me a solid framework that works rather well. But not only do I have a framework that works well, I have a framework that can be used to continue to challenge the characters at ALL levels that the game is designed to support. How I decide to put together the elements to come up with an encounter is up to me. Just as how I decide to describe these challenges is up to me.
 

That being said, there is overlap. It's possible for the lock to fall into multiple categories, and it's also possible that the lock could change categories depending upon how the scene plays out.

Very well said. The lock is a prop, just like the monsters, the traps, the environmental hazards are a prop. The entirety of the encounter is what's important. The DM has already made that determination for these things based on the level of challenge he wants to put the party through in that particular encounter.
 

Not that we need further derailment by a logical fallacy detour but does this go by another name, because I am drawing a blank on Henderson's Fallacy (is it maybe related to the flying spaghetti monster?).
Oops - sorry, you got caught as "colleteral damage", and I think I may have missed the main target through mod pre-emptive strike!

As far as I know, there is no such fallacy; the aim was to show that, even though inducing opponents 10-15 feet away to move may be "impossible", getting (debating) opponents who are several hundred miles away to do a Google search can apparently be done with just a wiggle of the fingers...
 

Oops - sorry, you got caught as "colleteral damage", and I think I may have missed the main target through mod pre-emptive strike!

As far as I know, there is no such fallacy; the aim was to show that, even though inducing opponents 10-15 feet away to move may be "impossible", getting (debating) opponents who are several hundred miles away to do a Google search can apparently be done with just a wiggle of the fingers...

Well played. I definitely made that search.
 


I think it is hard to have meaningful resource management when the players don't know what the challenges are in relation to which they're planning.

For instance, how can you meaningfully choose whether or not to spend a player resource (gp, spell slots, whatever) on food if you don't know the odds of (i) successful foraging in general, and (ii) of animals or NPCs having recently been through the area cleaining out all the food, and (iii) finding an abandoned food wagon, and . . . etc etc.
So if there were set DCs for gathering food (including terrain, climate, etc.), making money, how much rations cost, determining whether or not an area is stripped, etc., then would you consider that enough information to make resource management meaningful? That's essentially how my campaigns operate, and my players have been caught by low food before.

But, they've also been caught unaware by weather that turned bad. And when that happened, they had, at best, a couple days' notice. So, I can see the argument for buying tents and blankets, etc. not being "meaningful resource management", in that situation. Something interesting for me to think about. Thanks for the reply. As always, play what you like :)

Very interesting discussion. I certainly appreciate thoughtful threads like this, with good points coming from all directions.
Me too. Much more productive than a few pages ago, and what do you know, now I'm posting in it. I love civil, productive conversation.
I'll try and illustrate:

[SNIP]

I would say that (a) allows resource management. We can, as a party, leave in a hurry and re-prepare to attempt to battle a troll.
I would say that (b) means little to nothing in terms of managing resources. It's tension and pacing dressed up as information.
I get where you're coming from. Okay.
For example, the party pushes on and are attacked by stirges in the cave entrance. If the players know the troll is true they can start to make a judgement about what resources are expendable on the stirges. However, if the troll warning could be a wind-up, it has next to no value in resource management. What is does is create fear which ramps up the tension with the stirges. Both can be enjoyable - but one is about players managing resources and one is about the GM managing tension.
So, essentially, you don't think you can meaningfully manage resources against the unknown. I think you can definitely manage resources, but I think I get where you're coming at with "meaningful" now. The players (or PCs) don't know if it's meaningful or not, since nothing may come of it.
In general terms, my view is that tailoring a scene to PC resources means they are not managing resources. The GM is using PC resources as a yardstick or cue. In other words, if the challenge I face is the same whether I have full HP or half HP, I really don't need to concern myself with HP loss. I can push on knowing I'll face an appropriate threat for my resources and enjoy the excitement.

However, if a GM sticks to their tables, or prep, or information given to the players irrespective of what I have left in the tank, then they can say it's my own damn fault I got beaten to a pulp, I should have prepared and managed my stuff better.
So, it sounds like strong scene framing might not work with meaningful resource management, since having encounters that outright overwhelm PCs isn't really that good for tension most of the time (though consequences other than death can definitely be used to build tension in these situations). But, strong scene framing to build tension (especially in combat) means that you're likely tailoring threats to the PCs' current state, so that the tension remains high. Does that sounds about right, or did I miss something?
I don't think I'm explaining this well, but I hope it's as thought provoking as I've found other posts in the thread.
I think you're doing very well. Giving me some interesting things to think about, if nothing else. Thanks for expanding on this for me. As always, play what you like :)
 

So if there were set DCs for gathering food (including terrain, climate, etc.), making money, how much rations cost, determining whether or not an area is stripped, etc., then would you consider that enough information to make resource management meaningful?
In general, yes - though I think [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION] is right that details of particular GMing practices matter.

But, they've also been caught unaware by weather that turned bad. And when that happened, they had, at best, a couple days' notice. So, I can see the argument for buying tents and blankets, etc. not being "meaningful resource management", in that situation.
In some approaches to play, this would be what weather predicting skills/magic are for - but that would only work if the GM used and stuck to weather charts.

For me, this relates back to my comments upthread about dungeoncrawling - this reduces the range of variables that are in play, making things more manageable on the GM side.

it sounds like strong scene framing might not work with meaningful resource management
I think this is right. Resources can be meaningful - but they shape story and tactics, not difficulty/pressure, which the GM is deliberately keeping at a high level as the basics of the approach.
 

Giving me some interesting things to think about, if nothing else. Thanks for expanding on this for me. As always, play what you like :)

It's a pleasure to be discussing gaming! It's useful to me to talk and read about these theoretical ideas sometimes to see how much scrutiny they can withstand. Helps me run stuff, for sure.

So, it sounds like strong scene framing might not work with meaningful resource management, since having encounters that outright overwhelm PCs isn't really that good for tension most of the time (though consequences other than death can definitely be used to build tension in these situations). But, strong scene framing to build tension (especially in combat) means that you're likely tailoring threats to the PCs' current state, so that the tension remains high. Does that sounds about right, or did I miss something?

Absolutely.

And when I GM I can feel players who concern themselves with 'resource management' are kinda working against me as a GM. If a player wants to search the sewers for a missing girl maybe I get an idea that I'll frame it like this: "So, you've been searching for an hour when there's a fizzle and pop as your torch burns out. Suddenly you hear a dreadful wailing echoing through the filth..."

You can see that if beforehand the player had said: "Okay I buy 20 torches and a mile of rope and I tie one end of the rope to me and the other end to the sewer grate and I buy..." they are denying me options in how to move the action forward by limiting the scenes I can frame.

But what will happen is they simply change the way I frame it, so it goes like this: "Okay, so deep into the sewers you suddenly feel a horribly strong pull on the rope and then it goes slack, like something huge just cut through it..."

In other words, preparation, planning, buying stuff - it's all besides the point. Finding the girl in the sewers is a test of character (as in belief, will, determination, bravery - just how important is the missing girl to you?) far more than a test of resources or planning. This is why I said earlier that I consider scene-framing a method of showcasing characterisation.
 

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