You're doing what? Surprising the DM

[Storminator]

In our last epic level 3e game I had 2 rules: 1) I ran every crazy combo past the DM before I deployed it and 2) we couldn't change "plot direction" except at the end of a session.

1) was because we had a high mage, an epic sorcerer, an epic cleric, an epic bard, and an epic mageblade with an epic sorcerer trapped in an artifact. We had a ridiculous amount of spell power at our disposal. (adventures would typically start with every PC teleporting to rescue their ambushed friend) It was simply outrageous to throw preplanned combos as "surprises" at the DM and expect any sort of reasonable response.

2) was because epic DMing is so prep intensive, that I didn't want his work to go to waste. We would outline our plans for the next session, then I would make sure we followed thru on those. We made no guarantee that we'd stick to that course beyond one session, but I was pretty adamant about that one session.

PS

 

[Libramarian]

So where do you,as a DM or player, draw the line between "being innovative" and "ambushing the DM"?

I try my best to not only accommodate this kind of thing but compliment the player for their idea. I don't expect the player to voluntarily gimp themselves just to protect the plot or the ambiance. If this causes some kind of problematic rules artifact then that's the rules' fault, not the player's.

However this doesn't include messing around just to draw attention to yourself or to watch the DM sweat. That's not acceptable. But I encounter that more in the form of pointless NPC abuse than powergaming.

 

[Celebrim]

I consider any surprise or ambush on my part to be a rules failure on my part to have not anticipated the need for a ruling.

My general procedure is to let whatever the letter of the law as it seems to be written stand, with the advisement that if it proves to be too powerful that I will present a new rule at the beginning of the next session that will clarify and balance this unexpected usage.

In this case, the usage is neither unexpected, nor unbalanced. I would allow it to stand to turn a basilisk invisible against its will, so as to negate its gaze attack. The balancing cost is simple - you now are facing an invisible basilisk.

 

[Cybit]

My two cents;

Depends on the intent; if it is a cool one-off trick, then I think most people will be OK with it. If it's symptomatic of someone trying to power game the system, I'll either say no, or let them do it, become Standard Operating Procedure, and then the next time they run into an enemy with the ability to research their opponents, have it turned brutally and maliciously back on them, while usually verbally berating the PCs for being incompetent adventurers who are incapable of adaptation and deserve to perish. (If a player is being a dick to a DM / the game, it can be done right back to them).

That said, I've never gotten to that second part yet. :-D It also comes down to the system, such things tend to be more entertaining for everyone involved in 4E vs 3E, because in 3E, the DMs can be deflated after having spent tons of prep time on something to have it be made pointless; where as 4E has far less prep time, and thus a far less chance of that occurring.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I get rather grouchy when DM's pull the rug out when I do something like this, so, I'm very, very careful not to do it to my players. And, "There's a Spell for That" is pretty SOP in a lot of D&D games anyway. I mean, that's what spells are for aren't they? To get around problems/solve problems?

Sure, if it's getting out of hand, then step in. But, the first time? Meh, you win this time. I'll get you next time.

I've never understood why DM's feel they have to make every single challenge a challenge. If the players figure something out, run with it.

I remember a few years ago I was playing in a Shackled City campaign with a Binder. We were in this outer planar place where we had to cross a fairly desolate wasteland to get to some city. With one of the vestiges that I could bind, I could cast Monster Summoning V and call one creature (from any list from Summon Monster V or lower) that would stay until it died or I sent it back. So, I called a Huge Monstrous Centipede, mounted up the party, and crossed the wasteland Fremen style. I thought it was kinda cool.

The DM was very much in a snit, because the centipede has a climb speed, meaning that virtually any wasteland barrier was no longer a barrier as it could simply climb down and up any crevasses or things like that, and, because I could simply call another one when the first one died, I could make it forced march until it died and then summon another one and repeat. Our journey, which was supposed to last several days, with multiple encounters, lasted about two days with pretty much no encounters because we could out run pretty much anything.

Hey, you don't want things like this to happen? Don't let people play casters.

 

[Celebrim]

Hey, you don't want things like this to happen? Don't let people play casters.

Or more to the point, figure out ahead of time what casters are likely to do and plan for it and run with it.

Although, I hope if you are going to try to mount a party on a centipede, that you have centipede sized saddles and such, because if you tried that in my game, I'd be impressed but I'd also be planning to make the parties life heck with skill checks. The Centipede might can climb, but can you hold on when it does? How many of you are proficient in riding monstrous vermin? I'm pretty sure a Centipede does not count as a war trained mount. The idea of a party trying to cross a wasteland on the back of a giant centipede just screams, "This is the part of the movie where you have a comic slapstick montage."

 

[PureGoldx58]

Me personally as a player I absolutely love to surprise my GM, there is no greater fun for me honestly. It isn't a "haha I fooled you thing" (well once, but then that was more of an egocentric GM moment), but it is usually a "this would be BA right now...". I am known in my circle of players as being one of the less GM friendly players because I research rules, look up things regarding rare interactions and pick up anything my little PC arms can carry.

As a DM I played everything, everything so far from the chest that I expected them to find a way to kill gods accidentally, I encouraged freethinking even though I felt they didn't do enough of it, especially when a small handful of monks near TPK'd a party of gestalt casters... (I was so disappointed, but it made the threat of their big bad seem more real to them and I played it up to that point)


TL;DR: No matter what happens, have fun and realize that the story and the fun are the only two important things. I have limited my druid/cleric caster because of my fellow players and have had just as much fun and created a terrifying PC that has lived on in the world as a force near as strong as the gods.

 

[PureGoldx58]

Or more to the point, figure out ahead of time what casters are likely to do and plan for it and run with it.

Although, I hope if you are going to try to mount a party on a centipede, that you have centipede sized saddles and such, because if you tried that in my game, I'd be impressed but I'd also be planning to make the parties life heck with skill checks. The Centipede might can climb, but can you hold on when it does? How many of you are proficient in riding monstrous vermin? I'm pretty sure a Centipede does not count as a war trained mount. The idea of a party trying to cross a wasteland on the back of a giant centipede just screams, "This is the part of the movie where you have a comic slapstick montage."

I wouldn't think of it as a penalty, considering how low the check is in most games for riding, but it is a result of the ease of travel. If someone falls off, they should expect to be swarmed by local scavengers that usually follow giant predators similar to these.

 

[Celebrim]

I wouldn't think of it as a penalty, considering how low the check is in most games for riding, but it is a result of the ease of travel.

The base difficulty to stay in the saddle is 5, and applies in all the following situations: the mount is injured/struck, you are injured/struck, the mount fails a save on any sort of mind effecting spell or spell-like ability (it bolts unexpectedly if it is subject to a fear effect), or the mount must make a skill check (even if it would be automatic for the mount) such as to jump an obstacle.

Assuming this isn't 4e where everyone gets ranks in everything simply for leveling up, even an untrained dexterity check of 5 is going to present some players with difficulty. It's not usual for clerics, paladins, and some fighters to have dex bonuses of zero, giving a 20% chance of failure. But, there is a -5 penalty for riding a beast without a saddle which probably applies to this situation, and a -5 penalty that applies to riding something ill-suited to being a mount which I would rule definately applies in this situation on two grounds - one the beasts back is too wide to easily straddle and is smooth and chitinous and hard to grip and two the mount is not trained to bear riders. Moreover, the only character that I'd allow to make a skill check to assist fellow riders is the one controlling the mount, which is the Wizard and Wizards don't usually have ranks in Ride.

In short, I expect none of these issues to present insurrmountable problems to a party, but I do expect the journey to go less than smoothly - however much it may beat walking. I'd also expect that this is a perfect time for intraparty characterization and role play. If you really want to impress me, stay in character as you play out these difficulties. I'll definately give XP for that equivalent to what you would have gained slogging you way through the desert. On the other hand, you want to hand wave the journey, threat this as a contest between players and the DM, and get all rules lawyery and analytical in responce to the challenges I present, I'll let you 'win', but not a lot of XP is going to be forth coming for your short cut.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or more to the point, figure out ahead of time what casters are likely to do and plan for it and run with it.

Although, I hope if you are going to try to mount a party on a centipede, that you have centipede sized saddles and such, because if you tried that in my game, I'd be impressed but I'd also be planning to make the parties life heck with skill checks. The Centipede might can climb, but can you hold on when it does? How many of you are proficient in riding monstrous vermin? I'm pretty sure a Centipede does not count as a war trained mount. The idea of a party trying to cross a wasteland on the back of a giant centipede just screams, "This is the part of the movie where you have a comic slapstick montage."

So long as they aren't trying to fight saddles usually won't matter. I do agree that climbing would be an issue, though.