D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[Pour]

A lot of those cases of "speaking in general terms" is how we get to the mood around here. Before you know it, someone's nose is out of joint because they felt they were personally targeted by one of those comments in general terms when they thought they were being honest (even if bluntly so). Either we all have to just learn to let it go or we all have to stop talking in general terms about people's behavior... or maybe (maybe even probably) both.

Nem was personally targeted. And if you switch 4e to PF, you might be nose-disjointed, too. Here, when I change a few words, this is how it reads. Let me know your feeling:

"So when I say the following, I do it with the utmost respect (targeting you):

Maybe the PF community needs to acknowledge that unwelcome things are going to be said about PF in D&D5 threads, specifically because D&D5 is supposed to improve on D&D in all its forms, no matter how anyone felt about it. Maybe the PF community needs to let it go.

I enjoyed PF. But if I am going to talk about what D&D5 needs, I am going to make negative comparisons with PF. And I do not need my thread hijacked every time I do that. It is counter productive."

I mean if that's not dismissive, "quiet down kids, the adults are speaking" type of tone and approach to a public forum, I'm not sure what is. That is the real trolling. And we were doing so well...

@Scrivener of Doom Black Swan, eh? Hehe not bad. How about "We exist no matter how much you want to deny, undermine, or ignore us- and we're part of the D&D legacy no matter how much it grinds your gears". Maybe a little long for a game title...

 

[Nagol]

Nem was personally targeted. And if you switch 4e to PF, you might be nose-disjointed, too. Here, when I change a few words, this is how it reads. Let me know your feeling:

"So when I say the following, I do it with the utmost respect (targeting you):

Maybe the PF community needs to acknowledge that unwelcome things are going to be said about PF in D&D5 threads, specifically because D&D5 is supposed to improve on D&D in all its forms, no matter how anyone felt about it. Maybe the PF community needs to let it go.

I enjoyed PF. But if I am going to talk about what D&D5 needs, I am going to make negative comparisons with PF. And I do not need my thread hijacked every time I do that. It is counter productive."

<snip>

My response? "OK. Makes sense."

 

[Pour]

My response? "OK. Makes sense."

Excellent, now that that's out of the way, I have about thirty or so points to make in my next post regarding several other edition's weaknesses and a dangerous correlation with the direction of Next. I'll post when I'm able!

 

[Nagol]

I look forward to it though I don't think we should limit discussion to variations of a particular game! FATE, CHAMPIONS, Pendragon, DitV, Rolemaster, the various Star War versions, Feng Shui, BESM, and many other engines have something to offer the discussion as well.

No system has ever been -- or I believe will ever be -- perfect. We have to analyze what works , what doesn't , and why if we are understand what areas we want to change and to develop systems that perform better in those circumstances. To do that we have to see what styles have been promoted, what were the difficulties, what had promise but failed to deliver.

This becomes true even though we aren't the ones performing the change, but adapting to it. We need to know what the various systems offer to make informed choices as to what games fit with what play styles and preferences and how to adapt them to be even closer to what we want at the table.

 

[billd91]

Excellent, now that that's out of the way, I have about thirty or so points to make in my next post regarding several other edition's weaknesses and a dangerous correlation with the direction of Next. I'll post when I'm able!

I've been playing some version of D&D for 32 years. For literally all of that time it has been subject to strident criticism from players of other games, designers of other games, the media, and detractors of TSR, Gary Gygax, or WotC. And I've never been deterred from playing. My self-esteem has never been damaged by it. If you feel you must bring it on, your feelings are honest, and it contributes to this thread, who am I to stop you?

 

[pemerton]

Next cannot afford to begin with a 5E equivalent of Keep on the Shadowfell - or the later but just as ignominous Pyramid of Shadows - because I think it was the single greatest piece of evangelism for Pathfinder. I mean, KotS was crap. That's not insulting it. That's describing it.

This made me smile.

(I downloaded the free version of KotS, but have never looked at it. It's reputation precedes it.)

 

[Obryn]

I would say that there's no need to confront an opinion or even a troll. Going back to your early post, ignoring it isn't condoning it at all, particularly on a message board in which there's no way for most observers to tell you've even viewed the expressed opinion. Interact if you want an honest discussion, not because you need to confront someone. An honest opinion doesn't need to be confronted. A troll gets the rise he's looking for if he is confronted.

Call it confronting, disagreeing, or whatever. That's part of discussion.

-O

 

[DMZ2112]

Maybe the PF community needs to acknowledge that unwelcome things are going to be said about PF in D&D5 threads, specifically because D&D5 is supposed to improve on D&D in all its forms, no matter how anyone felt about it. Maybe the PF community needs to let it go.

My response? "OK. Makes sense."

Excellent, now that that's out of the way, I have about thirty or so points to make in my next post regarding several other edition's weaknesses and a dangerous correlation with the direction of Next. I'll post when I'm able!

I'm looking forward to this post, too.

 

[Obryn]

E

I've been playing some version of D&D for 32 years. For literally all of that time it has been subject to strident criticism from players of other games, designers of other games, the media, and detractors of TSR, Gary Gygax, or WotC. And I've never been deterred from playing. My self-esteem has never been damaged by it. If you feel you must bring it on, your feelings are honest, and it contributes to this thread, who am I to stop you?

If you think anyone's self esteem is being damaged by debate about elf games... That's pretty weird.

This made me smile.

(I downloaded the free version of KotS, but have never looked at it. It's reputation precedes it.)

It's... Salvageable. That's the best I can say about it, and it's faint praise.

The 4e adventures in the HPE series are, imo, one of WotC's greatest missteps during 4e release. I think they irredeemably damaged 4e's reception by being horrible, grindy slugfests. The intro adventure is a new game's first (and in many cases, only) chance to make a positive impression on new players. Those adventures dropped the ball, badly. I could probably fill a blog with everything bad about them.

I've said it before - if someone's only exposure to 4e was that series of adventures, I can't blame them for bailing.

-O

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yeah, there can be little doubt that the initial adventures were some of the most poorly designed ones ever published for the game. Did they even play-test this stuff before releasing to the wild? The initial batch that made it into the magazines is not much better from what I hear.

I've read through the KotS series, and yeah, it's "bad and they should feel bad" for producing it.

Whether the people on the team writing adventures didn't understand their new creation, or perhaps they picked bad adventure writers (the editors didn't know the game either?), whatever the case it was a perfect storm.

That said, a lot of people admit (even on these boards) going in expecting to hate it (myself included), and that certainly doesn't help matters. If you try a new game and spend half your time playing lampooning the thing, then that has to contribute. That ill-will, I think, was probably born from the way the game was marketed, and I sympathize to a point (after all, I did the same thing).

WotC had squandered whatever goodwill they'd built up with me, but I gave it a chance, and they earned it back. Now they're spending it again. How much goodwill will be left by the time Next releases depends greatly on their treatment of 4e-isms within Next, and within their interim marketing (such as L&L, cons, etc). This is basically what I mean when I say that if I don't like what I see at launch, I may not come back if and when their "tactics" module comes out.

And who could blame me? This was the story with many of the current edition's detractors; we hear about it all the time, and they are held faultless within their peer group.