Imagine there was another Earthlike planet in our system

I agree with the sentiment, somewhat, but not the percentages of evil in humanity. I'd say 1/100 at worst, not 1/10.



If there is one thing I've learned in my studies of the past fire years, it is that the rational human mind is an overlay over an irrational, emotional, animal core- like Windows over DOS- and the irrational portion is what engages most quickly.

Yeah, something like that. Freakonomics (an excellent book to challenge how we arrive at our assumptions of things), had a section on a guy who used the honor system to pay for his bagels. He found smaller offices were more honest, large more "anonymous" offices were less honest. I'm too lazy to fetch my book, but if I recall, the approximate percentage was 10-30%.

Regardless of the actual number, the percentage was definitely a minority.


I agree, there are at times, a lot of bad people on the planet, doing bad things.

But we're not all evil. Not even a majority. Otherwise, we'd have just as many "good" people going postal on "bad" people. But it's never that way. You very seldom hear on the news of a "crazy vigilante" wiping out a gang of drug dealers.

That's because whatever factor enabled Adam Lanza to walk into a school and kill a bunch of kids, or the Taliban to put a bullet in a school girl's head because she advocated for girls to get educated, the rest of us ain't got that. If we did, then the people of Pakistan would find every Taliban bully and slit his throat in the middle of the night.

Most of us can talk big and can enjoy movies like Die Hard. But we ain't got it in us to go the extra mile.
 

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Earth would want to kill them if they were anthropomorphic kittens. Earth would want to kill them if they were hot anarchic atheistic sex pots who extended us an open invitation. Earth would want to kill them if they were just like us (a perfect duplicate of Earth). Earth would want to kill them if doing so meant 4 in 5 children on Earth had to choke to death on their own excrement.

Charity, compassion and open mindedness are lies.

Humans are objectively evil.

I, for one, would vote against genocide...at least in those scenarios you just presented.

PS: does it seem to anyone else that someone is grumpier than usual?
 

I thought the thread started gloomy and pessimistic with all the planet destruction going on, but I guess I was wrong. Now it's gloomy and pessimistic.
 


You would say that. (narrows eyes)

Otherwise, we'd have just as many "good" people going postal on "bad" people.

Just dress it (evil actions) up in terms of patriotism, good business and religious fidelity and anything becomes acceptable.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, once it was determined there was another sapient and sentient species in the solar system, humanity would wrap itself around the axle to go to war with the other species, even if it did not make objective sense to do so.
 

Have to go with Grumpy on that one.
Humans run the spectrum. However, humanity as a whole is a plague. Funny thing: greedy immoral people tend to rise to positions of power and influence. What effect does that have on a culture, do you think?
 

Smart people do, but they're the exception.

No, not really. Very few people who are so sick they cannot stand manage to get into their workplaces :p

Perhaps you remember in 2007, when Atlanta personal-injury lawyer Andrew "Drew" Speaker flew from Atlanta, Georgia to Paris, France and on to Greece and then Italy before returning on a flight from Prague, Czech Republic to Montreal, Canada, where he crossed over the border and back into the United States while infected with multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis?

That's Hollywood biology, though, where one man moves around and creates a plague. But, the situation in which the really deadly versions of a disease spreads around takes a bit more than that. HIV, for example, has an extremely long incubation time. For the 1918 pandemic, it wasn't just that a guy with the nasty strain moved around, but that first hundreds, then thousands, then tens of thousands of people who had the disease were moved around. A situation that specifically favored and selected for the spread of the ugly strain was set up by human activity in large amounts.


However, even with sharing 90+% of our DNA, viruses do not jump easily from species to species with pathogenic virulence.

It happens commonly with influenza.

Unless Martian and terrestrial life share a common origin, it is likely that we share less than 50% of our DNA...assuming they're even carbon based.

You're too focused on viral infection. We don't even know if they have what we'd call viruses. I would expect another threat to be form other microorganisms - their analogs of bacteria or fungi, for example, that just happen to find the interior of the human body, or the interior of one of our major food crops, to be a really cool place to live. They don't have to share our DNA, they just have to be able to grow someplace really inconvenient. The chance of that being true for any particular microorganism from another world is not strong, of course.


One in ten people would smoke a kitten for the sake of smoking a kitten.

As my father would say, that's horsehockey. I think you're letting selection bias influence you. There are individuals who are horrible people, yes, and their horribleness imprints strongly upon us. And we then tend to make our estimates of how common the thing is based on how we *feel*, rather than real evidence.

Our reputation for rational thinking is vastly over rated.

For individuals, yes. But, for actions on the nation-state level, if you look at actual history, you'll generally see a socio-economic basis for conflict. There is no basis for such conflict at the tech levels we are considering. War may come eventually, when we are competing for resources, but not before.

I'm singling you out but it's prevalent throughout the thread. This is a very human centered, anthropocentric, way of looking at it. You're making the assumption that the aliens have political and economic structures as we have here in the developed world. That's a huge assumption.

The issue of needing a socio-economic basis for really major expenditures of resources is not at all anthropocentric. It is thermodynamics, really. As a living thing, you have limited resources. You spend those resources to maintain and expand your resources. If you spend too much, you lose the energy-game, and you die.


The premise is that they are at the same level as us. Bullgrit hasn't mentioned if we are aware they are at the same level.

The tech level makes that close to inevitable, as I mentioned early in the thread. So long as both sides build radios of some form, we'll notice each other.

Umbran, it's true that behind the rhetoric of wars is usually a socio-economic reason but that reason is based on the fear of not having enough. When in the history of "civilization" have we ever gone: "Well that should do it, we have sufficient resources to provide for ourselves and those around us. No more conquering for us." They are considerably closer to the asteroid belt which could have a lot of resources for when we become a space-faring species. We can't afford there to be a asteroid-mining shaft gap.

Our actions are generally driven by what resources it is economical for us to get. In the scenario under discussion, mining the asteroids profitably is beyond our capabilities when first contact happens, so it isn't an issue yet. We may go to war *eventually*, but not in the timeframe under discussion.

What everyone here saying "we would go to war" is forgetting is that nature knows more than "kill or be killed". Nature also knows cooperative relationships...

Your guts, for example. You realize that in your small intestine, you host more bacteria than there are humans on the face of the Earth, by some orders of magnitude? You realize that not only do they live there, but that without them you'd die of malnutrition? Do you realize that *every cell in your body* is an example of such a relationship - your mitochondria are an example of a mutual relationship that has lasted so long, we forget that at one time there wasn't a thing called a eukaryotic cell....

Given some time when we *aren't* in direct competition for resources, we could well develop a mutual relationship that's good for both species...
 
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No, not really. Very few people who are so sick they cannot stand manage to get into their workplaces

You'd like this to be true, but it isnt. Too many people these days are scared of losing their jobs, or are hoarding/have used up their sick leave to actually miss work even while seriously ill.

My father (an MD) has treated people who walked into his office while becoming cyanotic.

That's Hollywood biology, though, where one man moves around and creates a plague. But, the situation in which the really deadly versions of a disease spreads around takes a bit more than that.

I didn't just pluck that 50% exposure/infection rate via aerial transmission out of the air (no pun intended)- that's an estimate that shows up in some of the WHO reports, as well as the CDC and other literature. My Dad is an MD specializing in allergies, which requires a foundation in the study of infectious diseases: he has a special hate on for the Flu- mainly because people take it so lightly- so I've been hearing & reading all this stuff he gets for decades.

Again, exposure/infection does not mean you get sick. It does, however, still mean you can be a vector. In fact, you can be nearly asymptomatic and still be quite contagious, making you a carrier.

So if Killer Flu Patient Zero takes a flight and exposes 20 people (less than 50% of the plane's passengers), with only half of those getting sick enough to be a vector, and of those, only 2 get super sick. He gets off that plane and takes another to reach his destination, with similar results. We have 20 people spreading the disease, 4 of whom are deathly ill, right?

Not so fast: since the Flu is a hardy bug, and planes don't get cleaned all that thoroughly nor that often. Those 2 planes will harbor some of Patient Zero's plague for a few days, opening up further vectoring. Final tally of vectors? WHO knows, I don't.

It happens commonly with influenza.

That's 'cause the Flu is pretty slutty as pathogens go, and most of the time when it jumps species, the newly infected don't have the same kind of reaction as the carrier species. (More or less is, AFAIK, not predictable, hence part of the reason swine and avian flus are soooooo scary.) But even so, "commonly" is a relative term. Despite having common origins, only one or two of the last few avian flu outbreaks mutated enough to be transmitted from human to human as opposed to from avian to human with direct contact.

(Side note: this year's avian flu looks nasty, since the infected animals appear to be largely asymptomatic...)

You're too focused on viral infection. We don't even know if they have what we'd call viruses. I would expect another threat to be form other microorganisms - their analogs of bacteria or fungi, for example, that just happen to find the interior of the human body, or the interior of one of our major food crops, to be a really cool place to live. They don't have to share our DNA, they just have to be able to grow someplace really inconvenient. The chance of that being true for any particular microorganism from another world is not strong, of course.

I did mention the Plague & weaponized anthrax (bacteria) and rice blast (fungi) in passing, but the flu and smallpox are in some ways scarier because of our relative inability to use preventative countermeasures against them. While toxins like botulin or ricin are effective, things like that wouldn't serve the purpose i postulated- namely, defeating the foe in a way that allows easy post-conquest cleanup.

And who knows about what could be done with prions?

But the fact is, the reason I'm focused on the flu, etc. is because I am not a xenobiologist. The Flu is just my catch-all stand in for whatever nasty pathogen(s) might be found in the alien ecosystem. If, for instance, the aliens were sentient "plants", a "fungus" might be the only way to go.
 

You'd like this to be true, but it isnt. Too many people these days are scared of losing their jobs, or are hoarding/have used up their sick leave to actually miss work even while seriously ill.

That's not a worldwide phenomenon, though. It's fairly local to your country.
 

That's not a worldwide phenomenon, though. It's fairly local to your country.

A fair point, but I would bet its not limited to the USA, just most common here. And even here, its not that common.

But with the worst infectious diseases, it doesn't take many. With most of these diseases, you are contagious long before you become too sick to get out of bed. Because of this, we've had a few pandemics in the modern era- mostly with diseases exhibiting generally their mildest symptoms, thank God.

Tuberculosis alone kills 2 million a year, and it is estimated by the WHO that 1/3 of the world has been infected with the disease. Clearly, most of those people didn't miss work yesterday. Just as clearly, they are also not all wheezing and coughing...and we're not alarmed because a cough or a wheeze is not exclusive to tuberculosis. Or even to infectious disease.
 

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