Is D&D a setting or a toolbox?

[I'm A Banana]

What this thread really needs is the concept of remix. Or: Is a cat macro a toolbox or a specific form of something?

D&D isn't really a toolbox, though it started off closer to that. The instant you publish a monster manual, you're making declarations about things that exist in the world, and that's not a generic toolbox anymore, that's a specific kind of setting. Specific classes also make those same declarations -- something Gygax and Arneson seemingly realized when they published assassins and thieves in specific setting books, rather than as part of the basic game (which, essentially, included only fighters, spellcasters, and gishes).

Now, underlying the specificity, you can see the component parts of the game at work. A monster might be specific, and a class might be specific, but the "d20 vs. a number" mechanic isn't as specific (it's still a little specific, favoring heroic success potential, but it's a lot broader than "druid"). Those moving bits can be deconstructed and rebuilt for various purposes.

The myth here is that just because you're a specific thing, it means you can't be used for other things.

What D&D is is hackable. You've got a game that -- at its best -- wants you to grab it, tweak it, remix it, and repackage it. It is really not a generic toolbox, but it is oh so exploitable. It's a meme. It's The Harlem Shake. There's a lot of variations on the theme, but all the variations adhere to that theme, simply because the underlying elements of their construction are the same.

D&D isn't a toolbox, any more than Downfall is a toolbox. It's not created to enable you to do anything you want. But it's easy to remix, which means that there's a lot you can do with the pieces that are there. You can make Hitler rant about anything you want! That cat can has whatever you want him to can has! That backbeat can be rapped over quite well!

The key to understanding how different tables use the D&D ruleset is to view it through the lens cultural remix.

 

[Weather Report]

...both...*said like Bill Murray in The Man Who Knew Too Little*

 

[innerdude]

Its not part setting, its part genre. It does not have the enough specifics to be a setting. The PHB is not the PHB for Greyhawk, Eberron, FR, or any other setting (although Greyhawk probably has the least amount of additions or changes to any core PHB).

But D&D is its own style of fantasy - its own genre. Other games can do fantasy. For example, I play/run Savage Worlds and it does fantasy fine. But nothing does D&D like D&D. All the other settings and editions are aspects/angles of that genre. Any like any genre, there is some stuff you like and some you do not (some people love FR, others hate it. Same with various editions and clones).

D&D is an excellent tool-set for D&D games, but its a lot of work to get it to do non-D&D things. While D&D takes its inspiration from many sources, it does not replicate those sources very well without heavy customization. For example, Lankhmar, Conan or LoTR may be inspirations to the game but D&D has never done Lankhmar, Conan or LoTR well without major changes - and it still did not "feel" right. D20 tried to be all-things to all people during the 3.x era, but in the end outside of d20+mods vs. target number you had pretty much a new system. Everything had different classes with a bunch of new feats and modifications to make HP (wound/vitality) work.

I actually LOVE the way Savage Worlds plays for fantasy. Savage Worlds is terrible for emulating "D&D." But it's AWESOME at emulating the feel and style of the fiction of Brent Weeks (minus the high magic) or Scott Lynch, or the overall setting "vibe" of Thief: The Dark Project.

But it's definitely NOT D&D. Right or wrong, D&D really is its own fantasy genre now.

If I had to pick "setting" or "toolbox," I'd have to lean toward "setting." "Setting" implies certain things about the "way the world works," and since Vancian magic is pretty much hard-coded to all D&D settings, that's a big part of "setting" to me.

 

[amerigoV]

I actually LOVE the way Savage Worlds plays for fantasy. Savage Worlds is terrible for emulating "D&D." But it's AWESOME at emulating the feel and style of the fiction of Brent Weeks (minus the high magic) or Scott Lynch, or the overall setting "vibe" of Thief: The Dark Project.

But it's definitely NOT D&D. Right or wrong, D&D really is its own fantasy genre now.

Agreed

 

[Ratskinner]

Right or wrong, D&D really is its own fantasy genre now.

This.

Which I find very frustrating when running fantasy in another system, mostly because of all the "deprogramming".

 

[Balesir]

Ideally? It would be close to 100% toolbox.

As to what's been published, it varies. The d20 system is a toolbox, and 3e is the toolboxiest iteration of D&D, but it still has a lot of setting in it. It would be nice to see the toolbox mentality expanded upon.

I'm wondering why a "toolbox D&D" would be in the least bit attractive?

For my money, the closest to "toolbox" was probably the "Skills & Powers"/"Combat & Tactics" supplements for 2e rather than 3.x - and they didn't seem to work out too well as a coherent game.

Looking at 3.x, if you take out all the genre/setting stuff (i.e. all the monsters, all the spells, all the items, all the classes and all the gods, just to begin with), what is there left that you would really want to build a game around?

It seems to me that the main core of attraction in D&D is the "D&D-ness" of it, not the systems, as such.

 

[Evenglare]

D&D is definitly NOT a tool box. At all. If you think it is, you haven't played RPGs which ARE tool boxes, namely HERO and GURPs which has been mentioned before. Toolbox RPGs allow you do nearly infinite things and allow (and push) for maximum customizability. HERO is my favorite because I CAN run any game I want to. With D&D as other have said there are built in assumptions, although Pathfinder and their archetypes and alternate rules are doing some cool stuff, it is wayyyyyy low on the tiers of true "toolbox" rpgs.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm wondering why a "toolbox D&D" would be in the least bit attractive?
...
It seems to me that the main core of attraction in D&D is the "D&D-ness" of it, not the systems, as such.

It seems to me that the main attraction of D&D is that it's a creative hobby. You make your characters and worlds, and you play with them.

If you're talking about D&D relative to other rpgs, the main attraction is that a significant number of people have actually heard of it.

I'm not sure how you're defining "D&D-ness", but in my mind most of the things that are "distinctively D&D" range from quaint and kitschy to aversive and offensive. Definitely don't see any attraction to dungeon crawls, hour long combats with boards full of miniatures, sexist art, goofy large swords, Vancian magic, experience, levels, hit points, classes, or most of the "distinctively D&D" elements.

My thesis is (and has always) that the best thing about D&D is that it gets people to do cooperative make-believe in their spare time. Everything else about D&D could use improvement. Often lots of improvement. After all, the hobby as we know it is still in its infancy.

Looking at 3.x, if you take out all the genre/setting stuff (i.e. all the monsters, all the spells, all the items, all the classes and all the gods, just to begin with), what is there left that you would really want to build a game around?

Skills and feats and ability scores, with one simple mechanic for action resolution (d20 vs this, compare the result to that). i.e., the good stuff.

 

[Weather Report]

Definitely don't see any attraction to dungeon crawls, hour long combats with boards full of miniatures, sexist art, goofy large swords, Vancian magic, experience, levels, hit points, classes, or most of the "distinctively D&D" elements.

Those have never been "distinctively D&D", those are symptoms of the last 2 editions (especially the very last), which are often derided.

 

[Alzrius]

Anyone who thinks that "sexist" art - which I presume means artwork of scantily-clad women, which is not in-and-of itself sexist - is unique to D&D among RPGs is wearing some very, very thick blinders.