Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[I'm A Banana]

Look, my basic point is pretty much exactly what Aldarc said. I feel that setting specific canon belongs in that specific setting and should not bleed over into other settings. I would go a bit further and say that setting specific cannon should not be a consideration when talking about core elements. If changing something in core makes it more broadly appealing, then that change should be done. If it's wrong, then change it back. But, simply dismissing change because it doesn't conform to what came before is never the right thing. If an element cannot be justified on its own, then that element should be changed.

I gotta disagree with the basic thrust of this. The idea that there's a division between "core" and "setting" material is something of a myth.

Each table plays its own version of D&D, each time that they play, that includes everything the people at that table think is relevant for that moment of play, and nothing else. The experience of the game is subjective. If all I ever play is Dark Sun, and I never have gnomes in my games, gnomes are pointless to me, but muls may be essential. If the game is re-defined so that humans and dwarves actually cannot reproduce because dwarves are now fey spirits of the earth, that screws with my game. If, on the other side, dwarves are left as essentially biological beings, but mul stats are left for a particular Dark Sun book, that doesn't screw with my game as much.

Anyone who plays D&D has a reasonable expectation of being able to play their game in 5e. While the launch probably doesn't need to include everything, it does need to not exclude anything (as much as possible).

 

[Weather Report]

Agreed. Organic change is good.

Yep, evolution, not revolution.

 

[Balesir]

Halflings and gnomes, in particular, have been wildly reinterpreted in different settings and editions. Is that as problematic for you?

That depends what you mean by "reinterpreted differently". Versions of natural, social creatures like gnomes, halflings and humans that have wildly differing social arrangements, cultures and living habits don't trouble me at all. Look at the range of cultural norms, ecological roles and social organisations adopted by humanity over real world history - the idea that an intelligent social race can adopt hugely varying habits of living does not seem to be controversial or problematic in the least.

If, on the other hand, you are going to make changes to the fundamental nature of the creature, as defined by the system of the game, then I think it does matter. If, for example, gnomes were "reinterpreted" as large aberrations with an aura of anti-magic then, yes, I think that would be a problem. I don't think any of the versions of gnomes to-date do that, though, and even fairly close - but systematically different - versions have been renamed (like svirfneblin).

 

[Balesir]

The outer planes are simple enough to reconcile, but the World Axis really did a number on the inner planes of the Great Wheel. The elemental and para-elemental planes were thrown together, dumped into Limbo, and renamed the Elemental Chaos; the Negative Energy Plane merged with the Plane of Shadow to become the Shadowfell; the Positive Energy Plane was colonized from Arvandor and turned into the Feywild; and then the Shadowfell and the Feywild ganged up on the Ethereal Plane, killed it, and took its stuff.

The only real problem with interpreting the PS schema in the World Axis cosmology is the Ethereal Plane, I think.

The "elemental/paraelemental/quasielemental" planes are easy, especially as the PlaneScape (and earlier) stuff kept talking about them "merging at the edges" and "forming para- or quasi-elemental planes where the planes meet"... Infinite planes don't - cannot - have "edges" FFS!! (As an aside, they can't have "middles", either, Sigil's supposed position in the Outlands not withstanding).

The answer is to have them somewhere in the infinite plane (read those words carefully - *infinite* plane) of the Elemental Chaos. There, they can cross over/meld at the edges and have a quasi-cubic layout all they wish. The Negative/necrotic bit probably has several portals to the Shadowfell, and might easily have dark fortresses aplenty. The radiant/Positive bit might even have links to the Feywild (although that's not as necessary as the Negative/Shadowfell links, IMO). All your "portals to the elemental plane of..." simply go here - job done.

The Ethereal plane is a bit more tricky, but adding another "parallel plane" that is just misty and drab and offers easy transition to the Elemental Chaos wouldn't be too difficult, if you thought it really necessary. This would be the "border ethereal" to the Elemental Chaos' "deep ethereal".

P.S. (edit): The Outlands should just be a domain in the Astral Sea. The idea of them being an infinite plane but totally taken up by that ruddy great hill and a set of gate towns was pretty laughable, anyway. I mean, that would give an infinity of nothing much beyond those gate towns - what kind of a place is that?? Make them an "island" in the Astral Sea and it all fits nicely.

 

[Alan Shutko]

That depends what you mean by "reinterpreted differently". Versions of natural, social creatures like gnomes, halflings and humans that have wildly differing social arrangements, cultures and living habits don't trouble me at all. Look at the range of cultural norms, ecological roles and social organisations adopted by humanity over real world history - the idea that an intelligent social race can adopt hugely varying habits of living does not seem to be controversial or problematic in the least.

If, on the other hand, you are going to make changes to the fundamental nature of the creature, as defined by the system of the game, then I think it does matter. If, for example, gnomes were "reinterpreted" as large aberrations with an aura of anti-magic then, yes, I think that would be a problem. I don't think any of the versions of gnomes to-date do that, though, and even fairly close - but systematically different - versions have been renamed (like svirfneblin).

Incidentally, in Mystara, the halflings did have a limited anti-magic ability (called denial), which made sense given their saves.

It seems to me that it may be that people have fewer problems with "natural" creatures that exist in the Prime Material plane having a lot of variation, but that the outer planes are expected to be Planets of Hats where their fundamental nature covers much more of how they act. It makes sense, because if you tried to describe the outer planes in as much detail as your average campaign setting you'd never finish.

On the other hand, that rigidity attributed to the outer planes are a big part of why I've never really liked that cosmology. I prefer shades of grey to the absolutes that so many Outsiders exemplify.

 

[Balesir]

Yeah, I do think planar dwellers can have a bit more variety than often attributed to them, but they tend to be created (and often immortal) rather than evolved, which does tend to make me lean towards them being relatively invariant.

 

[Ratskinner]

The only real problem with interpreting the PS schema in the World Axis cosmology is the Ethereal Plane, I think.

The "elemental/paraelemental/quasielemental" planes are easy, especially as the PlaneScape (and earlier) stuff kept talking about them "merging at the edges" and "forming para- or quasi-elemental planes where the planes meet"... Infinite planes don't - cannot - have "edges" FFS!! (As an aside, they can't have "middles", either, Sigil's supposed position in the Outlands not withstanding).

You've brought this up several times, so I just wanted to point out...

Infinite things can have centers...even if not in the normal geographic sense we're used to. Zero, for example, can rightly be considered the "center" of the real number line. Not because its halfway between the non-existent ends, but because it has special properties which divide the rest of that space neatly (at least in most Algebras). Sure, its a more colloquial usage, but there it is. Do Sigil's special properties grant it such status on the Outlands? I'll leave that as an exercise for the individual GM/group.

P.S. (edit): The Outlands should just be a domain in the Astral Sea. The idea of them being an infinite plane but totally taken up by that ruddy great hill and a set of gate towns was pretty laughable, anyway. I mean, that would give an infinity of nothing much beyond those gate towns - what kind of a place is that?? Make them an "island" in the Astral Sea and it all fits nicely.

meh. Given the actual known mostly-empty universe, an infinity of nothing much beyond those gate towns doesn't really bother me. Mythologies the world over utilize universes that are much smaller than a/the typical D&D cosmology. If the "standard D&D" or "Planescape" cosmology is an infinite mostly-nothing except for this interesting bit around Sigil, that would still be plenty consistent for me.

Even so, I would prefer very little "cosomological" stuff to be hard-wired into the game. IMO, even the presumption of a "hell" is unnecessary. I would much prefer a product with little information, but very easy to create with. I realize some information will need to be included with the critters in the MM, but I'd prefer it to be prefaced with "In most worlds..."

 

[Alzrius]

The "elemental/paraelemental/quasielemental" planes are easy, especially as the PlaneScape (and earlier) stuff kept talking about them "merging at the edges" and "forming para- or quasi-elemental planes where the planes meet"... Infinite planes don't - cannot - have "edges" FFS!! (As an aside, they can't have "middles", either, Sigil's supposed position in the Outlands not withstanding).

I disagree with you on this. It's not contradictory that infinite planes have edges and layers; it's paradoxical, and I think that that's intentional.

My presumption here is that this seemingly-impossible configuration of limitlessness and limitedness was on purpose, that it was supposed to encapsulate the idea that the planes are a mixture of physical space and materialized metaphysical ideals at the same time. In that regard, moving through them crossed more than just physical space, and so it was quite possible to cross the Outer Planes to arrive at their "edges" as you move "away" from their metaphysical "centers."

In other words, that was a feature, not a bug.

 

[Weather Report]

I agree that it is quite easy to reconcile the Wold Axis cosmology with the Great Wheel.

 

[pemerton]

The thing is though, it wasn't a distinct setting taking something from the core game and making it its own thing. Everything was set within the Great Wheel cosmology at the time in 2e (and before that in 1e even), and there was never any distinction between a Planescape mezzoloth and a core mezzoloth.

But the Planescape "mezzoloth" carries baggage that a person playing AD&D using purely the core DMG and/or Vault of the Drow and/or FF/MM2 (all possible sources for daemons) didn't necessarily ask for an may not want. I don't see why all future players of the game are expected to be saddle with that baggage because one particular group of enthusiasts found a core monster they liked, without much lore attached to it, and wrote up a whole lot of extra stuff about it.

Greyhawk does a lot more with bullywugs than the core rules do, such as linking them to Wastri, the Hopping Prophet, and his bizarre anti-demihuman agenda, but we don't conclude from that that any future work is, per se, precluded from presenting bullywugs as cooperating with demihumans.

Then you do what everyone using those monsters does in a post-Planescape world - you use them anyway, but without the Planescape baggage.

So then what is the objection to new lore which Planescape players can ignore when they want to run a Planescape game?

If all I ever play is Dark Sun, and I never have gnomes in my games, gnomes are pointless to me, but muls may be essential. If the game is re-defined so that humans and dwarves actually cannot reproduce because dwarves are now fey spirits of the earth, that screws with my game.

Why can't the Dark Sun player just ignore that new baggage, just as I might have to ignore Planescape baggage to use mezzodaemons in the ways that I want to?

I do think planar dwellers can have a bit more variety than often attributed to them, but they tend to be created (and often immortal) rather than evolved, which does tend to make me lean towards them being relatively invariant.

On a bit of a tangent, I certainly don't assume that the "natural" creatures in my D&D world evolved. For instance, in the core 4e cosmology the world (and its inhabitants) are clearly created.