The ethics of ... death

I can't comment definitely on some of the other bits, but I'm afraid this is flat wrong. The inconsistency that "Dark Matter"* is intended to explain is the fact that galaxies rotate faster than they should. This was noticed as part of a test/practice exercise given to a young student - she found the result beyond strange, but couldn't find the error. When her supervisor couldn't find the error, either, they began to suspect that something very odd was going on. Years later, the result of their test is confirmed, but we still have no unambiguous evidence about what causes it; "dark matter" is still just a theory, despite large experiments searching for it - one of which was done just down the road from me in the very deep Boulby potash mine.

*: which is called that because it doesn't reflect electromagnetic radiation much, nor does it interact to any noticeable degree with other matter - it has, essentially, gravity/mass with no electrical charge whatever.

Edit: it just struck me that the claim that ordinary matter "doesn't radiate light" is also slightly misconceived. Unless it is at absolute zero (-273.15 degrees C) it radiates in the infra-red (heat) to some degree. I/R radiation is not substantially different from (visible) light - humans just can't see it because out eyes aren't built for it.

I thought that rotational irregularity was being attributed to black holes. Learned something new today...

In any case, most astronomical objects "shine" only with the light that reflects off of them. I'm not sure how that reflectivity would be affected by the presence or absence of an electrical charge. And as far as I know, "matter without an electrical charge" is called neutronium, another theoretical state of matter, and neutron stars aren't exactly invisible. Even if distributed as a cloud of gas or dust, it would either block light (i.e. absorb it) or reflect it, and unless it was at absolute zero it too would have a heat signature. (Entropy suggests that if it's absorbing light, it isn't at absolute zero. That light energy has to go somewhere, after all. :) )

In any case, theoretical physics discussions don't exactly belong in game threads.

Though it is fun to wait for someone to suggest spells like Major Creation be used to produce antimatter, as a way to create an antimatter explosion. But, like the idea of producing pure refined Thorium, there's a major flaw in this use of Major Creation: You have to have a small sample of the material desired, as a component. And, of course, you'd need to make one hell of a Knowledge check to even justify the attempt. I don't know that I'd allow such a thing at all, simply because there isn't a "Knowledge - Nuclear Physics" skill in D&D. :)

Still, it's tempting to let someone try. The antimatter sample would kill them before they could ever get the spell off.
 

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I thought that rotational irregularity was being attributed to black holes. Learned something new today...
No; black holes are localised (almost point phenomena, in a galactic context), so you can see how their gravitational effect changes with distance from them. The galactic rotation anomaly is partly that the velocity changes too little as you get further from the galactic centre.

Black holes were considered, exoplanets and brown dwarves were considered - all manner of "mundane" explanations. The bottom line is that none of them work, however. The "missing mass" discrepancy is not small - ~75% on the basis of the rotation anomaly alone (and other anomalies thought to be related, such as anomalous "galactic lensing" - the way light is deflected by the gravity well around far away galaxies - have also been found). I.e., at least four times (and currently thought to be maybe seven times) as much mass is needed in the universe as we can see. It's rather a big discrepancy.

In any case, most astronomical objects "shine" only with the light that reflects off of them. I'm not sure how that reflectivity would be affected by the presence or absence of an electrical charge.
What we call "reflection" is actually the absorbtion of light (electromagnetic) energy by the electrons in matter, causing those electrons to become "excited" until the drop back down to their "ground state", re-releasing the photon that excited them in a different direction. Metals and non-metals do this in different ways because metals have "free" electrons while non-metals don't, so metals can reflect a coherent picture while (most) non-metals don't.

And as far as I know, "matter without an electrical charge" is called neutronium, another theoretical state of matter, and neutron stars aren't exactly invisible.
Well, no, neutronium (which I had to look up) is a special case and very speculative. Neutrons don't have charge, but they do have a slight electronic dipole, and they interact with atomic nuclei through the strong nuclear force, since they are hadrons - which was a class that I forgot to say Dark Matter doesn't belong to.

Basically, particles of matter interact via one of the "four fundamental forces" - electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces and gravity. Dark matter - if it exists - interacts only through the last one, gravity.

Even if distributed as a cloud of gas or dust, it would either block light (i.e. absorb it) or reflect it, and unless it was at absolute zero it too would have a heat signature.
Without being either atoms (i.e. hadron-based matter) it's impossible for anything to be what we would call "dust". Certain other forms of matter are supposed to exist in the extreme conditions within neutron stars and the like, but you'd hardly call those "dust" - they pretty much have to be a big "lump".

Without electromagnetic interactivity, light is neither absorbed nor reflected (which are actually similar - what we call "absorbtion" is generally absorbtion and re-emission at a different wavelength, often IR, whereas "reflection" is absorbtion and re-emission at (approximately) the same wavelength).

(Entropy suggests that if it's absorbing light, it isn't at absolute zero. That light energy has to go somewhere, after all. :) )
Right - it either travels straight on by without interacting, or it gets absorbed and then re-emitted sooner or later. With "Dark Matter" the idea is that it simply doesn't interact.

In any case, theoretical physics discussions don't exactly belong in game threads.
True, although an astounding number of people seem to want to try to apply real world physics to fantasy worlds. Go figure.

Though it is fun to wait for someone to suggest spells like Major Creation be used to produce antimatter, as a way to create an antimatter explosion.
Oh, yeah, here you're right. The list of issues with trying to do this just goes on and on, but I have pretty much always found that trying to mix science with D&D ends badly, no matter how you cut it!
 

YWe have lots of well travelled people - why do so many people get mauled by Koalas that are "so cute" because they don't realize they have powerful sharp claws?
Out of curiosity, who are all these people being mauled by koalas? I live in Australia and don't hear of very many koala-maulings!
 

True, although an astounding number of people seem to want to try to apply real world physics to fantasy worlds. Go figure.

Oh, yeah, here you're right. The list of issues with trying to do this just goes on and on, but I have pretty much always found that trying to mix science with D&D ends badly, no matter how you cut it!

Wait a minute...are you saying that a system (and D&D culture) that places biomechanical limitations on mundane, martial PCs due to the invocation of atmospheric friction/drag, the weight of gravity generally and escape velocity specifically while simultaneously allowing dozens of mundane (extremely setting-relevant) creatures and their non-magical forms of locomotion to violate the same is science and D&D mixing badly (and arbitrarily)? No wai :p
 

True, although an astounding number of people seem to want to try to apply real world physics to fantasy worlds. Go figure.

The list of issues with trying to do this just goes on and on, but I have pretty much always found that trying to mix science with D&D ends badly, no matter how you cut it!

There's a good reason why people do this - it's because no RPG out there ever constructs its own physics or other science engine. They rely, in fact have to rely, on our own understandings of the world around us to fill in the gaps. If you let go of a sword, it doesn't hang in space. It falls. If you slam a door in a charging goblin's face, it won't simply pass through the door but will hit it, possibly injuring itself and damaging the door. If you toss a sheaf of parchments in a fire, they will burn rather than freeze. Science constantly informs our understanding of cause and effect even in games, of in game actions and consequences. Without them, what sort of expectations can a player have when he has his character do something?

When it comes to RPG elements, we bend the science rules to allow for the ones we find genre appropriate. Giants don't collapse under their massive weights, dragons breath fire (or other energies), magic actually does things, the Hulk can pick up ridiculously heavy stuff without any real leverage, Cyclops's eyes can fire beams that impart kinetic energy without shoving him around, and so on. But those are all fundamental exceptions to the rules of reality that we import to games like swords fall, goblins can't intangibly walk through doors, and fire burns flammable things.
 

I'm not even slightly surprised.

All of which has nothing to do with Bodaks or D&D in any way, other than that it's speculation and mostly fantasy. :) That being said, you should probably disregard everything I've said on the subject.

While I agree the subject matter is off the topic, it illustrates that having some people who lecture about topics the general populace has no experience or expertise with in no way provides a substantial knowledge base for the population.

Because they're cute. If there were a D&D monster with an SoD and a deceptively benign appearance, I bet it would be really dangerous. I don't know of any.

By the "everybody knows what it basically looks like and can do" belief you have been espousing, it should not matter that it is cute, unless it precisely mimics the appearance of some other creature (and even then everyone would know some creatures can do that).

A more apt analogy would be comparing the rules on Knowledge with the rules on attacks, period. That's a more similar scope. By comparison, the former is pretty light.

I think your breadth is excessive. This would imply Knowledge should occupy what, 25% to 1/3 of the rules? We should have Knowledge Skill descriptions that are as many and varied as feats, or as spells? That we would make as many rolls, and spend us much time, on activities focused on the knowledge skills as we do in combat, in the typical game. That just is not the case. Knowledge skills are abbreviated abstractions because they are a limited focus of game activity.

The actual words the character says are in-game.

And they are chosen by the character, based on his persuasive abilities. A player who is quite honest and forthright, and a terrible poker player, might indicate "I try to convince the locals that this concoction of foul-smelling herbs, mud and water is a wondrous healing concoction". It is the character, with a +15 Bluff, who phrases the snappy patter that sells out the supply to the townsfolk.

Just as a high PER skill reminds a player that his character sees something subtle, and he need not pass a "where's Waldo" or "Scene-it" test to benefit from his character's skills, nor must he tell me how he feints, dodges and moves to land a sword blow - his character has those skills.

I think there's a pretty clear distinction in D&D that you control the character's mind but not his body.

Why does the character have INT, WIS or CHA if the intent is that the player uses his own? In my view, the player controls the decisions of the character, and what he attempts to do. The rules, including the character's skills and abilities, controls his success or failure in these efforts.

That would be the sort of thing that sensible DM interpretation of what the DC is and the scope of successful check easily prevents.

The rules are intended to place the players and GM on common ground as to what constitutes 'sensible GM interpretation" and "scope of successful checks". We could certainly remove to hit and damage roils, and leave that to "sensible GM interpretation" as well. Let's take a step back and remember that the rules for adjudication of success and failure are just structure for a game of "let's pretend", so rather than "I hit - fall down you're dead", offset with "No, you missed", instead the dice arbitrate the success of the attack.

There are, but I am not aware of any D&D skills that meet that description.

Then we disagree on whether certain of these skills could require special training. If anything, I question Craft and Perform lacking a similar "you can only do so much untrained" aspect similar to Knowledge. Profession, though, requires training - what makes it different?

Wait, so you're okay with a character benefiting from a player's knowledge for substituting the function of knowledge checks, but not his speech construction for diplomacy checks? (I'm okay with both because you inhabit the character's mind and both are mental)

No, I am OK with a character learning from experience without investing skill ranks. Borog the Stupid and Sacriligious can certainly learn from experience that attacking a spectre with a non-magical weapon is futile, or be told by Leon the Learned that Silver will harm the werewolf. Having seen that in action, he can certainly consider himself justified in using a silver weapon when he encounters a werewolf again, or even deciding to try it Leon's way when they track this one down. But just because the player is well versed in werewolf lore, that should not mean Borog (or even Leon) automatically knows werewolves are susceptible to silver. Leon may have the knowledge skill, so he gets a roll. Borog's one skill point per level went to Intimidate.

No, there isn't. "That's a basilisk, don't look at it" is knowable to characters. Its HD are not readily observable.

So despite these world travelers ensuring every schoolchild can recognize a basilisk on sight, know of its petrification gave and be aware of exactly what steps they should take in defense, they can't know that it can absorb more damage than a warhorse and keep on going? I think your "common knowledge" is very sporadic and selective in its application.

I don't understand the first question. As to the second, it's a good question, but they didn't really know for sure. Of course, they have a general idea of relative power levels, and one imagines that high-powered criminals who get the death penalty are a very valuable commodity. But there is a gamble there.

To the first question, it is simply that there would seem to be pretty common resurrections, given the scroll and the condemned prisoner. Hasn't anyone stepped up to the plate, like those world travellers, to disseminate successes and failures so we have a better idea which lives are enough? How many sentient creatures do PC's combat? Keeping a few prisoner hardly seems a stretch. Hell, they're "condemned" anyway - would they not be a valuable commodity in being available for sacrifice to Raise nobles, even if the PC's don't need them?

And the last question, the players could use the same approach, assuming they could find and chaperon a suitable sacrifice, pay all the normal costs, and have no moral compunction about killing someone in cold blood in exchange for a resurrection.

Suspend Animation and Shrinking spells/carrying devices seem likely developments when these creatures become such valuable commodities, as the main scarcity seems to be the life to sacrifice. Traveling NPC's of little note have the spell available.

The moral issue is the more scary one to me. Seems an unlikely action for a Paladin, or even a Good cleric - exchanging one life for another seems an evil act. Now, if I wanted such a system to truly make Resurrection rare, I'd be fine with it being a CANTRIP. But the exchanged life must be given freely and voluntarily, with no compulsion, no magical or mundane coercion, and no force. A 100% without regrets sacrifice freely chosen by the entity giving up its life for another.

Ahnehnois - Without looking it up, what color is a common krait snake? What does it look like? How big is it? What are the methods for treatment of a bite?

Even given the vast amount of information at your fingertips, I'm fairly certain that you wouldn't know anything about this snake other than its name and that it's very poisonous. Why would you expect some Middle Ages peasants to know anything about an Athach? Or a Bodak? Or a Teneberous Worm? Or a Grey Ooze?

On and on.

BINGO!

Isn't that enough? "Snakes are often poisonous is common knowledge". So is "undead often drain the life out of you".

Then do the PC's believe this of all snakes (it surprises many that constrictors are not poisonous, or that rattlers don't inject poison) and a walking skeleton can slay a man instantly merely by meeting its gaze? Do we fear a Crocodile might turn us to stone, and avert our eyes? It's a big reptile, like a basilisk. Or do they know the specifics of each creature independently? The former is legend and myth, the latter textbook recognition on sight.

Because they live nearby and are dangerous. Why would you expect them to be ignorant of the world they live in?

If the whole MM lives nearby, how do humans survive? This does open up the suggestion that "local knowledge" should grant an understanding of creatures that live in the local area, rather than all humanoids and only humanoids, though.

2) Kraits are @3' long and bluish black with white stripes.* but none live where I am- I know this 'cause I'm kind of into snakes. I'd expectpeoplewho live near poisonous snakes to at least be familiar with the concept that some snakes are poisonous, and maybe even be able to ID some of the more notable facts about the most dangerous ones. Even though they may not know what a krait is, most people in the American Southwest can ID a rattlesnake by sound, and would be loath to blithely stick their hands into nooks & crannies near rocks & rotting logs.

This shows a further abstraction - we don't want dozens or hundreds of Knowledges, so we have KN Nature for all animals, not separate skills for snakes., fish, toadstools, etc. Knowledges are broad abstractions, like Doctors and Scientists in Sci Fi always have specialist level knowledge in dozens of separate fields.

Out of curiosity, who are all these people being mauled by koalas? I live in Australia and don't hear of very many koala-maulings!

I googled Koala Mauling - stupid people getting too close to an animal get scratched. No reports of anyone turned to stone or slain by a death gaze, though...
 

Funny...we all know snakes are poisonous, deadly dangerous beasts. Yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_snake_bites_in_the_United_States can name the people killed each year in the US by snake bite. Are there that few snakes? Are humans in general that skilled at avoiding them?
And do they always know which are deadly, and which harmless, or do they often mistake one for the other?

"Common knowledge" is often vague, contradictory and inaccurate.
 

Funny...we all know snakes are poisonous, deadly dangerous beasts. Yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_snake_bites_in_the_United_States can name the people killed each year in the US by snake bite. Are there that few snakes? Are humans in general that skilled at avoiding them?
And do they always know which are deadly, and which harmless, or do they often mistake one for the other?

"Common knowledge" is often vague, contradictory and inaccurate.

I think this is a much more complicated issue than knowledge checks and lots of factors are probably at work (not sure if the number of fatalities at all indicates how much people know). . You are also looking at a single country. In india they suspect the death toll from snake bites could be as high as 46,000 (from the previous 2,000). And yes, I just learned this by googling it, I know virtually nothing about snake bite statistics.

I will say, I did grow up in southern california for a bit, and we knew the basics of what snakes to avoid and that if you did get bit by a rattlesnake, provided you got to a hospital in a timely fashion you would not likely die (people I always heard of who died were those who got bit far away from town, hours away from a hospital).
 

This is really starting to degenerate into arguing for arguing's sake. This whole argument is getting excessive and seems far more focused on just not letting go or not being willing to see the other side has a point.

Do people know a fair amount about the dangerous snakes around them? Yes. I know quite well that timber rattlesnakes can be found not too far from where I live and when I go to areas they are known to inhabit, I'm wary of putting my hands or walking on rocks I can't see. And yes, they're not terribly common compared to garter snakes, can easily be distinguished from them, and we usually avoid each other pretty well. And I'm not a herpetologist nor even a zoologist or biologist. I'm a software tester who is grateful he lives in an area without too many poisonous snakes.
 

This is really starting to degenerate into arguing for arguing's sake. This whole argument is getting excessive and seems far more focused on just not letting go or not being willing to see the other side has a point.

.

I agree. I think it has reached that stage of the discussoin where the actual points being debated have very little visible connection to the original dispute they emanated from.
 

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