D&D 5E Final playtest packet due in mid September.

The "larger audience" of course being your small home group, gotcha. I'd rather the game be more open to the real "larger audience" and let your group continue to mock your "friends" (not that I'd call someone that who constantly mocked my choices) for their ridiculous choices.
I look forward to your next successful rpg marketed towards all the people who care *that* much about these things. I'm sure there are tons of them.

No. But I like your determination in stating your opinions as if they were facts.
The default position I'm taking is that the game doesn't need radical changes to create some kind of balance. In other words, I'm supporting the status quo. I've yet to see anything other than opinions to the effect that there is a huge problem here that needs to be fixed. Do I value my opinions more than yours? Um, yeah. Are there any facts that support your line of reasoning? I don't see any.
 

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More so than usual, reading this thread feels like watching politicians from opposing parties who almost agree on the main issue - but can't be seen to agree with each other in public and so have to nit-pick. Or maybe I'm just really bad with subtleties this week. (e.g. Is there a big difference between "feels real" and "not breaking immersion"? Was that a failure to distinguish between "being useful" versus "being just as useful"? And seriously, an argument that being bigger (to a point) isn't helpful in combat when both sides have equal training and optimization?)

The "larger audience" of course being your small home group, gotcha. I'd rather the game be more open to the real "larger audience" and let your group continue to mock your "friends" (not that I'd call someone that who constantly mocked my choices) for their ridiculous choices.

Having actual survey results from the "real 'larger audience'" would be very cool.

And... verging on personal attacks in a few places. Probably not helpful.
 

Apologies in advance if I screw up any quote tags…

of course I can’t xp VB either. cussgrumblecuss clearly the rule on recent xp is flawed - stupid arbitrary website :)

Impossible? No. Unlikely? Yes. Class systems make change and growth difficult. And, one might argue, it ought to be. Predetermination is a theme in fantasy fiction. Biological predetermination is a theme of real life. The game just follows our preexisting observations to the effect that people don't change much.

Class systems make change of mechanics difficult. They do not prevent the Dwarf who started off detesting elves from developing a respect for the Elf in the party, or even the race as a whole, over the course of the campaign as a consequence of his experiences with Elves. No, not even if he’s a Ranger whose first Favoured Enemy was elves.

None of those things sound like changes that would have particularly salient mechanical representations.

Neither does that Dilettante Artist turning his social skills to raising a peasant army to overthrow the King and turn the nation into a democracy after campaign events persuade him of the injustice of the current system, even when he started as an aristocrat who supported that system, nor the Barbarian becoming sickened by killing and giving up his dreams of being a warlord in favour of seeking a peaceful existence.

Does that matter? A player who signs up to play a three foot tall fighter is almost certainly not doing so with the expectation that his overall combat effectiveness will be equivalent to that of a medium sized character. Why fix something that isn't broken?

“Broken”, ironically, is the term the gaming community adopts to describe “overpowered as compared to the other choices”. It is your opinion that the player does not wish to play a 3 foot tall warrior who is, like many smaller characters in fiction, as or more competent in combat, in his own style, as any larger warrior.

Deviating from Fantasy for a moment, does Wolverine’s player mean, when he notes he’s short, that he wants to suck at combat, or that he wants to defy that expectation?

Exactly. The number of people who laugh at a bard trying to adventure alongside a barbarian is probably large.

I think your group's bullying of other players is clouding your perception heavily.

The number of people who acknowledge that some classes should be better or worse at adventuring than others is likely pretty much everyone. The number of people who will complain if a halfling dervish is whirling through combat just as effectively as a character twice his size is likely pretty much everyone.


No. But I like your determination in stating your opinions as if they were facts.


The number of people who have a meaningful in-game problem because of one macro-level mechanical choice being slightly better or worse than another? Miniscule. That's for the charop boards.


Again, I believe your opinion is flawed.

To VB’s comments (and I snipped his excellent points on why he values character balance), I note that, on all of these issues, there seem to be a lot of posters who don’t agree that balance is not worth pursuing, much less that its pursuit would actually be detrimental. I think those who want balance outnumber those who oppose it (but I am biased to believe so, and I did not do any kind of a count). While I don’t find a message board the perfect random sample, I think it’s far superior to “me and the 3 guys I’ve gamed with for many years”, or even “all the gamers at my local game store”. And I see VB caught that as well…

The "larger audience" of course being your small home group, gotcha. I'd rather the game be more open to the real "larger audience" and let your group continue to mock your "friends" (not that I'd call someone that who constantly mocked my choices) for their ridiculous choices.

I’ll try to refrain from noting that group seems to have fallen from, what, eight or ten players (when Ahnehnois saw the occasional Bard) to three. Oops…guess I didn’t try hard enough… J

I take a bevy of complaints every week about applying real laws of physics to the game, genre conventions and stereotypes built into mechanics, interpersonal and character-specific issues, and a variety of other things that have nothing to do with the balance of those mechanics.

You mean like how the cube/square law means giants can’t exist, the aerodynamics of a giant wasp or the fact that many “two handed weapons” were largely designed for mounted use (using the horse’s speed, not one’s own arms, to deliver momentum) or for use in large formations, and generally suck for one man combat use? I find most gamers who complain about such issues are very selective in which real world physics issues bug them.

By the way, isn’t your classification of Bards a stereotype? I’d say “yes”.

In general, the more open-ended the mechanics, the faster they play. A DM who says "roll a Knowledge check" and sets a DC arbitrarily in his head resolves the check much faster than one who checks a series of rules to determine the DC.

All other things being equal, all other things tend not to be equal. This may speed play or slow it down, as the GM agonizes over an appropriate DC, and/or is challenged by the other players on his choice. After all, we want to apply real world standards, right? Really, that knowledge should be much more/less common than your arbitrary DC indicates.

A character built using open-ended skills (like what 13th Age does with backgrounds) is built much more easily than one that requires researching and comparing all relevant skill options. PF's combat maneuver system plays a lot faster than magic (or its ilk) because you simply decide what you're trying, roll a die, and let the DM tell you what happens. Not as "balanced", but easier and faster.

Or, again, slower as we debate which skill(s) ought, or ought not, to be applicable in the given situation and, again, whether the GM’s statement of what happens matches with real world physics, genre conventions, past rulings, etc. etc. etc. rather than just using the very specific rule as it is written and not arguing about it.
 

To VB’s comments (and I snipped his excellent points on why he values character balance), I note that, on all of these issues, there seem to be a lot of posters who don’t agree that balance is not worth pursuing, much less that its pursuit would actually be detrimental.
Which ignores the many people who have expressed disparate and contrary preferences on these and other boards and is dwarfed by the number who have stayed silent on the issue.

I’ll try to refrain from noting that group seems to have fallen from, what, eight or ten players (when Ahnehnois saw the occasional Bard) to three. Oops…guess I didn’t try hard enough… J
I don't see that my group's reduction from bloated to manageable due to people moving to other parts of the country is particularly relevant to anything. Certainly they didn't leave because my game wasn't bard-friendly or "balanced" enough, and in any case, ten people isn't a great size for a group. And, I think this kind of low blow makes it clear that, like most of the very finite cadre of people advocating these types of positions, the real agenda here is something other than the topic at hand. Case closed.
 

Having actual survey results from the "real 'larger audience'" would be very cool.

Sure would. But I also question who that "larger audience" is:

- Existing D&D players?

- Existing RPG players?

- Some smaller portion (eg. only GM's; only gamers with 5+ years experience; only those playing specific games/editions; endless possibilities exist)?

- The general public?*

If the gaming community does not grow, neither will the resources devoted to serving it - one area where my and Ahnehnois' experience coincides is that be are both gaming with smaller groups than, say, 10 or 20 years ago - a lot of those gamers drifted away from the hobby, and I don't believe they have been replaced by new gamers - that being the case, we are not growing, but shrinking, and a smaller customer base means less sales, and less potential for sales growth. How do we reach out to them? They don't go online and get playtest packets! [Neither did I, and I've been playing for **oh God, do I feel old now** over 30 years [please assume that's a typo...].

Which does cause me to realize the following:

- much of the problem is that you young whippersnappers don't know HOW to play RPG's;
- it's "seasoned veteran", not "crotchety geezer";
- that is not music, it's just noise;
- get the H*** off my lawn!

Now where was I?
 

More so than usual, reading this thread feels like watching politicians from opposing parties who almost agree on the main issue - but can't be seen to agree with each other in public and so have to nit-pick. Or maybe I'm just really bad with subtleties this week.

It's not just this week. In a medium like text (which internet message boards are), I think there's a tendency for people in an exchange to overstate their cases, while in face to face conversation that's less common because the back-and-forth enables a more easy exposition of a position. I also think that people react a bit hastily in a message board medium, responding half-cocked to where they think a statement was going and getting their responses completely out of proportion. I also think that the relative anonymity of the internet brings out the worst in people. There are people on various boards who do (I'm told) post with a much more abrasive persona than they behave in real life. From my perspective, all I see is them being an asshat online, but friends swear they're decent in person...
 

To VB’s comments (and I snipped his excellent points on why he values character balance), I note that, on all of these issues, there seem to be a lot of posters who don’t agree that balance is not worth pursuing, much less that its pursuit would actually be detrimental. I think those who want balance outnumber those who oppose it (but I am biased to believe so, and I did not do any kind of a count). While I don’t find a message board the perfect random sample, I think it’s far superior to “me and the 3 guys I’ve gamed with for many years”, or even “all the gamers at my local game store”. And I see VB caught that as well…

OK, I'm trying to parse out the negatives and understand what you're saying. "there seem to be a lot of posters who don’t agree that balance is not worth pursuing" - so there are a lot of people who believe balance is worth pursuing is what you're trying to say? Or is there one too many negatives in here?

When it comes to balance, I don't think people believe it's not worth pursuing... to a point. The question is where that point is. I want there to be some balance in my games. I'm not happy to see dictatorial or even very dominating strategies that broadly apply to too many situations (localized ones like the utility of death ward when facing a dread wraith, I'm OK with). I want all of the designed character types to be useful to a party of adventurers and allow the average player choosing that character type to have fun and not feel useless. However, I also think that, this being a role playing game and not a competitive board game, pursuing balance is less important than providing characters with interesting and genre-appropriate tools to pursue the adventures they want to pursue. And if that means there isn't perfect balance, I'm OK with that.
 

Was that a failure to distinguish between "being useful" versus "being just as useful"?

My real problem is that "being a good adventurer" is being equated with "being a good combatant." And those who aren't good in combat directly are mocked by Ahnennois' play group as being "bad adventurers." And the thought that this mechanic differentiation would carry over into concepts that get mocked at his table baffles me. Though what happens at his table is of no concern to me, designing a modern game with those tenets is something I would find abhorrent and unplayable (unless it was a Korgoth of Barbaria RPG that purposefully put Barbarians on a pedastal).

And seriously, an argument that being bigger (to a point) isn't helpful in combat when both sides have equal training and optimization?)

As I said, I think the fantasy world halfling would have different advantages as a Fighter than the half-orc, but does not by design need to be inherently inferior as Ahnehnois believes they should be. Who knows, maybe Ahn suffers from Mycroanthropophobia?

Having actual survey results from the "real 'larger audience'" would be very cool.

Surely.

And... verging on personal attacks in a few places. Probably not helpful.

I've only restated what he states he has done to his own friends. I intend no personal attacks. I don't think either of us has attacked each other personally despite not liking each others' opinion on this matter.

I look forward to your next successful rpg marketed towards all the people who care *that* much about these things. I'm sure there are tons of them.

2E strove for better balance over 1E, it did well. 3E strove for better balance over AD&D, it did well.

The default position I'm taking is that the game doesn't need radical changes to create some kind of balance. In other words, I'm supporting the status quo. I've yet to see anything other than opinions to the effect that there is a huge problem here that needs to be fixed. Do I value my opinions more than yours? Um, yeah. Are there any facts that support your line of reasoning? I don't see any.

That's why I try not to state my opinions as facts.
 

I want there to be some balance in my games. I'm not happy to see dictatorial or even very dominating strategies that broadly apply to too many situations (localized ones like the utility of death ward when facing a dread wraith, I'm OK with). I want all of the designed character types to be useful to a party of adventurers and allow the average player choosing that character type to have fun and not feel useless. However, I also think that, this being a role playing game and not a competitive board game, pursuing balance is less important than providing characters with interesting and genre-appropriate tools to pursue the adventures they want to pursue. And if that means there isn't perfect balance, I'm OK with that.

Very well put. And to your point of people overstating (since the above quote is more in line with what I'm trying to convey) maybe I am.
 

I look forward to your next successful rpg marketed towards all the people who care *that* much about these things. I'm sure there are tons of them.

Where's your litany of successful RPG's marketed towards those who prefer your views? Or, in other words, I don't find this comment overly helpful (in fairness, it's in good company with a lot of other comments, as much mine as anyone else's).

The default position I'm taking is that the game doesn't need radical changes to create some kind of balance. In other words, I'm supporting the status quo. I've yet to see anything other than opinions to the effect that there is a huge problem here that needs to be fixed. Do I value my opinions more than yours? Um, yeah. Are there any facts that support your line of reasoning? I don't see any.

As I look back on 39 pages of comments, I think the comments that most suggest there is an unbalance are those that suggest Bard's are just silly characters, and it's therefore good that they are underpowered, and that small fighters should be expected to be less skilled in combat than larger fighters, so it's good that they are. I don't believe they should be, and I'm not convinced that they are at present. That said, I am in favour of D&DNext maximizing balance between choices for characters, minimizing or eliminating "trap choices" and otherwise promoting equivalence, between characters of the same level as the default model.

Whether that is by maintaining an already attained balance, or by making broad sweeping changes to eliminate huge existing disparities is irrelevant. There is no "status quo" with a new edition that seeks to go back to the drawing board and make broad, sweeping changes. As a possible customer, WOTC can better court my gaming dollars by designing a game of balanced character choices than by deprioritizing or ignoring that objective. That can't be taken in isolation, but it also can't be a low or zero priority for the game to meet my objectives.

WOTC gets the thrill of assessing which priorities will best meet the objectives of the largest possible market. I'm sure they would gladly sacrifice your or my little cadre of gamers (or both!) if they could attract a couple of dozen new long-term buyers in doing so.

Which ignores the many people who have expressed disparate and contrary preferences on these and other boards and is dwarfed by the number who have stayed silent on the issue.

The majority always tends to be silent. Whether that mean they have no opinion, will buy whatever WOTC puts out, match the percentages of opinions expressed, all agree with me, all agree with you or some other possibility is not determinable. Given the size of the gaming community, and its shrinkage in the past 10 - 20 years, I'm not sure existing gamers as a whole, even if you could get them all polled, is the pool you want to market to - but I don't see a practical means of polling the non-gaming community to figure out how to get them to buy D&D Next either.

Certainly they didn't leave because my game wasn't bard-friendly or "balanced" enough

In your opinion. I don't know your players well enough to know better, so your guess is better than mine, but I doubt you had a full, frank and objective exit interview either. I don't when players leave my gaming group. I do know a lot of people who have abandoned a lot of game-type hobbies because they felt they were unable to "play competitively", whatever they interpret that to mean.

and in any case, ten people isn't a great size for a group.

Again, in your opinion, though I'm inclined to share this one. I've seen some posters comment on very successful games with large groups, and it seems like older rule sets (and scenarios) were based around larger player groups. Another sign of the diminishing market, perhaps, that 6 - 8 players has become 3 - 5 players.

And, I think this kind of low blow makes it clear that, like most of the very finite cadre of people advocating these types of positions, the real agenda here is something other than the topic at hand. Case closed.

To circle back...

I look forward to your next successful rpg marketed towards all the people who care *that* much about these things. I'm sure there are tons of them.

Pleased to meet you, Mr. Pot. Kettle's the name. Some mutual acquaintences suggested we have some common interests.

It is amazing, though, how a small and shrinking group like our own, RPG players, is so good at finding further divisions. For the record, I have not said anything intended to offend, and I apologize if anything I said was, in fact, taken in such spirit. It would not be the first time my comments in various venues have been ill considered and have not conveyed the intended spirit.
 

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