D&D 4E JamesonCourage Is Starting A 4e Game; Looking For Pointers

[pemerton]

Sounds like a good group of players and interesting party of PCs. Are you planning to push them hard on their self-interest/amoralism?

On the NPC issue, I am with the chorus advising against trying to run a full 4th PC as GM. A companion character is a better way to go - and running it is more easily a table affair, as whoever has to look after it on a given turn won't have a big mental overhead doing so. For similar reasons I wouldn't recommend a warlock as an NPC - they tend towards the fiddly side, especially if you want to try and get striker-level damage out of them.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Sounds like a good group of players and interesting party of PCs. Are you planning to push them hard on their self-interest/amoralism?

Yes and no. Amanda -the Monk player- seems to be the most amoral of the lot. Daniel originally intended to have a fairly Evil character, but really latched onto his character idea (the Cleric), and seems to have drifted from that somewhat. The Fighter is selfish, but not really ambitious like the Monk.

So, I want to feature it in the game, and I'll like dangle stuff to motivate the Monk and Fighter, but I don't think it'll be a big motivation for the Cleric. I'll probably tempt them, but not really push them hard most of the time. I might do it some of the time, though, when I think it'll fit with all three characters.

On the NPC issue, I am with the chorus advising against trying to run a full 4th PC as GM. A companion character is a better way to go - and running it is more easily a table affair, as whoever has to look after it on a given turn won't have a big mental overhead doing so. For similar reasons I wouldn't recommend a warlock as an NPC - they tend towards the fiddly side, especially if you want to try and get striker-level damage out of them.

Noted. I'll try the companion NPC, if necessary. When I got back tonight (about 4am here now... busy day for me!), I heard news of a fourth player that is interested in playing with us. She lives a couple towns away, but it's basically my home town, and I visit it 3-5 times per week. So, I don't mind picking her up once a week if that means we have a stable 4-person party.

I'll know more tomorrow (hopefully), but I might still want to feature an NPC from time to time anyways, and having these things done in advance will help me. I'll definitely look into the companion NPC stuff, and I'm looking forward to manbearcat's experienced take on one already, as it'll give me a better idea of what I might be running. Thanks for the feedback once again; it really does help.

 

[Storminator]

Nobody has Nature, History, or Streetwise.

Monk: Bluff, Insight, Stealth, Thievery.
Warpriest: Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, Religion.
Fighter: Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate.

The Warpriest did almost take History, but decided to take Arcana when I told him it'd likely come up more often (though I did say that both will be useful). He mentioned maybe taking it later, but the others didn't mention other skills.

I don't think they know yet. I certainly don't. I think they plan to wing it as they go along, though the Monk is looking forward to the power that lets her lessen / ignore harsh terrain and walk on water for a turn (I think; that's what she told the group, but I didn't check the power, as we were just making characters).

I did tell them that skills will be important, and that I like using them. So, after one or two sessions, I might have a better feel for where they're going, or how they'd like to advance.

Data point for you: I give every PC a free Skill Training and a free Skill Power per tier. I also have 7 PCs. IMG every skill is covered, some of them multiple times, and a few of them many times (6 Perceptions . . . ). Yet my PCs are still starved for trained skills and my skill challenges are still challenging. It can be hard to get PCs to throw a feat at Skill Training (tho most multiclass feats throw in a skill training).

Also, your PCs don't have Dungeoneering, History, or Nature. All the knowledge skills are fairly passive, unlike the Cha skills, so you could introduce a sage type NPC that doesn't wander into danger with them but can be consulted for info.

PS

 

[D'karr]

One more thing that popped into mind as I was creating some encounters for my group.

Soldiers - Avoid using them as much as possible unless they are the same level as the party. Don't use them in great numbers. Solo Soldiers are even worse - avoid these at all costs, or seriously tweak them. Of course that is all IMO, but my experience with these has been atrocious.

I find that monsters with that role are usually the most frustrating monsters to deal with. They don't do a lot of average damage so are not a huge threat. They don't have a lot of hit points on average, but they are a bitch to hit consistently if they are higher level than the party. This creates incredible frustration as the players miss, and miss, and miss with all their "good powers" and then are reduced to continue missing with their "At-Will powers". Use brutes instead. They hit hard, are easy to hit, and have adequate hit points to stay in the fight even when hit. I find them way more satisfying.

 

[Ferghis]

This is a great thread, and I wish I could do more than just spread xp around. Some things have already been repeated for emphasis, so I didn't feel the need to echo them again. Until now...

Soldiers - Avoid using them as much as possible unless they are the same level as the party. Don't use them in great numbers. Solo Soldiers are even worse - avoid these at all costs, or seriously tweak them. ... This creates incredible frustration as the players miss, and miss, and miss with all their "good powers" and then are reduced to continue missing with their "At-Will powers".

Absolutely agree. Soldiers have high defenses and just soak attacks, doing little else. There is little fun in fighting them.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Data point for you: I give every PC a free Skill Training and a free Skill Power per tier. I also have 7 PCs. IMG every skill is covered, some of them multiple times, and a few of them many times (6 Perceptions . . . ). Yet my PCs are still starved for trained skills and my skill challenges are still challenging. It can be hard to get PCs to throw a feat at Skill Training (tho most multiclass feats throw in a skill training).

I'll keep that in mind. I'm trying to run the game close to RAW, but I'll consider giving more out if I feel like they need it.

Also, your PCs don't have Dungeoneering, History, or Nature. All the knowledge skills are fairly passive, unlike the Cha skills, so you could introduce a sage type NPC that doesn't wander into danger with them but can be consulted for info.

I know that Amanda wants to start / work out of a city, and my cities almost always have book shops or scholars that'll answer non-hidden information for a few coins (I'll still roll a check for the NPC most of the time). This shouldn't be a problem. I won't introduce a specific NPC, but I'll bring these up as options, and if they keep going to one NPC, he might become the "featured" NPC when it comes to gaining knowledge. I know that my regular group is used to gaining information through sources outside the party, and hopefully I can help this group get there, too, if they don't do it naturally. Thanks for the advice.

This is a great thread, and I wish I could do more than just spread xp around.

It is! I'm glad so many people are helpful, and that nobody has come in to threadcrap.

One more thing that popped into mind as I was creating some encounters for my group.

Soldiers - Avoid using them as much as possible unless they are the same level as the party. Don't use them in great numbers. Solo Soldiers are even worse - avoid these at all costs, or seriously tweak them. Of course that is all IMO, but my experience with these has been atrocious.

Some things have already been repeated for emphasis, so I didn't feel the need to echo them again. Until now...

Absolutely agree. Soldiers have high defenses and just soak attacks, doing little else. There is little fun in fighting them.

Interesting. I made an elite soldier for them to go up against (probably... you never know), and the couple self play tests I ran went smoothly (I actually thought he worked rather well). He was the same level, though (level 1). I'm starting all the enemies they face no higher than 1 at the moment, as I'd rather lean towards "this is too easy" than "this is too hard" while everyone adjusts to the system. I will keep the advice in mind in the future, though.

I find that monsters with that role are usually the most frustrating monsters to deal with. They don't do a lot of average damage so are not a huge threat. They don't have a lot of hit points on average, but they are a bitch to hit consistently if they are higher level than the party. This creates incredible frustration as the players miss, and miss, and miss with all their "good powers" and then are reduced to continue missing with their "At-Will powers". Use brutes instead. They hit hard, are easy to hit, and have adequate hit points to stay in the fight even when hit. I find them way more satisfying.

I'll probably lean towards brutes over soldiers, for sure, though as of this point I think having a soldier every once in a while is still desirable on my end. Having someone who is a bitch to hit is not necessarily a negative in my book, but it really does depend. I do want to avoid grind, but I like a tiny bit of frustration in my combats. Not too much, but enough that the players get honestly happy when they take the offending NPC down. Again, though, I'll keep this in mind in the future. Thanks again

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't think soldiers are all bad, if kept at the PC's levels, but I find they're more helpful at slightly higher levels than 1st. If a soldier is given an appropriate mark-punishment ability (such as what a PC defender gets), they can add a tactical element to a fight.

In my last Dark Sun session, I used a couple of at-level soldiers to defend a solo brute. They were psychic warriors and used "Lightning Rush" (an immediate interrupt) to "take hits" for the boss. Also they had regeneration, and no that's not a psychic warrior. The PCs responded by dazing the psychic warriors (you can't take immediate or opportunity actions if dazed) rather than be forced to beat up the soldiers before they could get to the boss.

You don't need to use daze either. When I use NPC fighters, especially knights, the PCs often use forced movement to "open a gap" between the soldier and the boss, then beat up the boss until the knights return. Soldiers have great AC but their Fort/Ref/Will are average like everyone else's. Spellcasters often deal with them.

Just as an aside, use elites a lot. I'm not just talking bosses. If a fight consists of several brutes and a wizard, the PCs will identify and gank the wizard immediately, so make that wizard an elite wizard instead. Same thing if they have a name, are a warlord, or are otherwise distinctive.

 

[D'karr]

Interesting. I made an elite soldier for them to go up against (probably... you never know), and the couple self play tests I ran went smoothly (I actually thought he worked rather well). He was the same level, though (level 1). I'm starting all the enemies they face no higher than 1 at the moment, as I'd rather lean towards "this is too easy" than "this is too hard" while everyone adjusts to the system. I will keep the advice in mind in the future, though.

I'll probably lean towards brutes over soldiers, for sure, though as of this point I think having a soldier every once in a while is still desirable on my end. Having someone who is a bitch to hit is not necessarily a negative in my book, but it really does depend. I do want to avoid grind, but I like a tiny bit of frustration in my combats. Not too much, but enough that the players get honestly happy when they take the offending NPC down. Again, though, I'll keep this in mind in the future. Thanks again

You have the right idea, get people used to the system and their abilities. Let them get comfortable with their characters, then take them for the best ride ever. I think you have the hang of it.

An Elite Soldier of the same level is most probably fine, and if it's just one it will probably work as designed. Just try to avoid putting them up against higher level ones, or in concentrated numbers. A bit of frustration is okay, but in moderation. I find brutes more interesting because the players will be hitting them more often, which satisfies them. But they have enough hit points to take it and stay in the fight long enough to be a threat. It accomplishes the same goal as a soldier (why will this guy not die?), but reduces the annoyance of constantly missing.

The advice on this thread all serves as good guidelines. It's like a buffet line - Use a bit, all, or none. That which you use you may have to tweak to taste. Use things, and see how they work. If they don't work as expected, or as advertised use something else, or modify. The best thing is to experiment and see what will work best for you, and your group.

Once again good luck. Judging from the character creation session it looks like you guys are going to have a very fun time.

 

[Balesir]

I know that Amanda wants to start / work out of a city, and my cities almost always have book shops or scholars that'll answer non-hidden information for a few coins (I'll still roll a check for the NPC most of the time). This shouldn't be a problem. I won't introduce a specific NPC, but I'll bring these up as options, and if they keep going to one NPC, he might become the "featured" NPC when it comes to gaining knowledge. I know that my regular group is used to gaining information through sources outside the party, and hopefully I can help this group get there, too, if they don't do it naturally. Thanks for the advice.

This just reminded me of something I do that seems to work well: "passive" knowledge.

Basically, the rules give knowledge DCs required to get info about monsters "in the field". I generally allow a "take 10" style "passive knowledge" on these, but I adjust the DCs a bit (RAW they start at 15 for Heroic, 20 for Paragon and 25 for Epic monsters - I change that to 15+Level/2 to give a more smooth scaling; there are exceptions for "rare" monsters occasionally, too).

This typically means that, in a skill someone has trained, they get some idea of what a same-level monster is and what it can do, but not what its vulnerabilities and weaknesses are. Lower level monsters they might get its weaknesses, higher level typically just gives a name if someone is trained in the appropriate skill (otherwise zip...)

This makes Arcana, Religion, Dungeoneering and Nature particularly useful. In cities and towns I do something similar with Streetwise, too - "those guys are just a group of longshoremen, but those guys are wearing street gang insignia and look like trouble..."

Edit: the advantage of using knowledge "passively", for me as DM, is that I can check what the PCs will know "for free" beforehand and make notes on my encounter record sheet. They can use a minor action (per the rules) to ask for more, but of course they only get more if they roll more than a 10.

 

[Manbearcat]

If you want to give me a companion Slayer, that's the way I'm leaning right now. I already made a Slayer (which seems very simple), but I'm curious what a companion character will look like in place.

Here is what I'm thinking (features/frequency/etc scaling with level of course). Basically Divine Slayer or a lower mental overhead Avenger. Given that this would just be a combat companion summoned via horn, the fly would have no strategic use - just thematic.


Valkyrie of Kord
Level 1 Medium Immortal Humanoid (Angel) - Striker
HP 29; Bloodied 14 Healing Surge 11 @ 7 Initiative +4 Speed 6, Fly 6 (Hover)
AC 17 Fortitude 15 Reflex 14 Will 14

Traits

Chooser of the Slain
The Valkyrie of Kord's attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage.

Standard Actions

[MBA] Culling Spear (Divine, Radiant) * At-Will
l2Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); L + 6 vs. AC
Hit: L + 11 radiant damage.

Mobile Attack * At-Will
Effect: The Valkyrie of Kord moves up to half its speed and uses Culling Spear or Kord's Storm once at any point during the movement. The Valkyrie of Kord doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of the attack.

Kord's Storm (Divine, Lightning, Teleportation) * At-Will
Attack: Ranged 5 (one creature); L + 4 vs. Reflex.
Hit: L + 9 lightning damage and you teleport the target to a square adjacent to you.

Triggered Actions

To the Afterlife With You (Divine, Teleportation) * Encounter
Trigger: The Valkyrie of Kord hits with Culling Spear or Kord's Storm.
Effect (No Action): The attack deals 1d12 extra damage of the same type. If the attack reduces the target to 0 hit points, the Valkyrie of Kord teleports 5 squares.

It Is Not You Who Dies Today (Divine) * Encounter
Trigger: A Valkyrie of Kord's attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points.
Effect (Free Action): One ally within 10 squares gains 5 temporary hit points.