D&D 4E JamesonCourage Is Starting A 4e Game; Looking For Pointers

[Balesir]

I think I like your scaling a bit better. Out of curiosity, is there a reason to just not go with the (updated) DC by level chart? This is the way I'm currently leaning. This way, the DCs always scale to meet the party, and I can calibrate how hard it is based on rarity, and it'll tell me how much they'll get (Easy gets them name, Moderate gets them what it can do, Hard gets them vulnerabilities and weaknesses). Do you think this'll work for me?

The DCs by level (current/final version) will possibly be a bit easy. A trained/educated first level character is going to know powers for monsters up to ~9th level without taking a moment or three to wrack their brain. It depends on what sort of feel you want, I think; definitely use DCs for the monster's level, though, not the party's. The idea is that low level monsters get very well known as the PCs gain experience, and creatures once unheard-of become known from snippets gleaned in Paragon locales...

That's a pretty cool idea Balesir. I would couple it with a tip from Chris Perkins and give info from the bottom "check" up. So it would be: "Chris, you see a bunch of guys milling about. Pat, you see that there are 2 distinct groups. Jean, you see that one of the groups is sporting gang signs. Wang, you can tell they are the Wing Kong!"

That's a neat building idea. I generally give out the "passive" information at the start of the character's turn in initiative order; this makes all the players appreciate the one with the knowledges a bit more! Giving out one "level" of information at a time, though, might reward the player whose PC also has the appropriate knowledge as a "backup". Hmmm.

Thinking of levels of monster - something I find adds a bit of appropriateness to the scaling and is of huge utility in maintaining plot themes is what I call "XP equivalence".

Roughly speaking, 4E monsters double in XP value every 4 levels. This means that an Elite monster is worth the same XP as a Standard monster 4 levels higher. To get versions of monsters that "play well" with characters of different levels and remain of approximately the same overall power, I find this a very useful conversion yardstick. You can convert a Standard monster into a Minion 8 levels higher, an Elite 4 levels lower or a Solo 9 levels lower. Given that the 4E maths is non-linear (it approximates linear from around L-2 to L+4, with the asymmetry due to the skewed "to hit" at 8+ rather than 50%), this gives a way to make monsters "level appropriate" over about a 18 level range(!)

To continue this digression (sorry if it's old hat), this provides a neat way to do "sandbox" in 4E. Give each "adventure area" a base level, and if the PCs vary by 4 or more levels from that (a) change up the monsters as above to fit, and (b) for each 4 levels they are above the area, combine encounters in twos. Encounters can't easily be "split" for lower level parties, but that's fine - scaling the Standards to lower level Elites will mean they have at least a chance to daze or immobilise a few critters and GTFO!

This is actually an explanation for some of the threads about "Super-Minions" or "Demi-Minions"; the +8 levels for minionising a Standard can just miss the L-2 to L+4 spread. Some class of monster worth half a Standard would actually be quite handy from this perspective. A Minion that has two "hits" (bloodied on one hit, dead on two)and slightly elevated damage might work, but I haven't had time to experiment extensively, yet.

Edit: On XPs here - I get the "mail(XP)box full" message for [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], too - sorry!

 

[JamesonCourage]

The DCs by level (current/final version) will possibly be a bit easy.

I'm going off of what pemerton has in his document, as well as what Quickleaf put in his cheat sheet PDF. I trust both are pretty up to date (especially Quickleaf's stuff... I know pemerton is okay with letting certain things work pre-errata).

A trained/educated first level character is going to know powers for monsters up to ~9th level without taking a moment or three to wrack their brain. It depends on what sort of feel you want, I think; definitely use DCs for the monster's level, though, not the party's. The idea is that low level monsters get very well known as the PCs gain experience, and creatures once unheard-of become known from snippets gleaned in Paragon locales...

Honestly, I'll probably scale the knowledge to PC level, not monster level. If a monster is really rare, I'll likely bump the DC up to pemerton's hardest DC (23-24 at first level, if I recall correctly) if someone is going to get all the information on it. Like I've said, I'm probably going to scale most of their stuff to their level. Goblins and orcs (and etc.) might eventually become swarms, but that won't be for a long time. Most "high level" threats will become elites or solos for them even now, with some exceptions (old dragons, demon lords, etc.).

 

[S'mon]

The best 4e advice I've seen recently is to treat is as a Superhero genre game - loads of drama, big set-piece fights, interesting larger-than-life NPCs and hard-to-kill protagonists with special powers beyond ordinary mortals, fighting for Truth, Justice and the Nerathi Way (or whatever).

Halving hp is good for Elites & Solos. For Standard monsters I've recently gone from halving hp to using hp as follows:
Artillery, Lurker: 4 x (Level+1)+CON
Skirmisher, Soldier: 5 x (Level+1)+CON
Brute: 6 x (Level+1)+CON

This is within 2-3 points of PC hp.

Don't double damage. You can increase damage by 25% over the Level+8 standard without breaking anything.

 

[JamesonCourage]

The best 4e advice I've seen recently is to treat is as a Superhero genre game - loads of drama, big set-piece fights, interesting larger-than-life NPCs and hard-to-kill protagonists with special powers beyond ordinary mortals, fighting for Truth, Justice and the Nerathi Way (or whatever).

I was planning to go for something more cinematic rather than something gritty (which is how I run my normal game). I do plan to really get into the combats in this (big set-piece fights), but I think you're right -I should try to focus on the drama, too. I don't think my mind had drifted there much yet, but I certainly want the drama pretty consistently active (most of the time).

Halving hp is good for Elites & Solos. For Standard monsters I've recently gone from halving hp to using hp as follows:
Artillery, Lurker: 4 x (Level+1)+CON
Skirmisher, Soldier: 5 x (Level+1)+CON
Brute: 6 x (Level+1)+CON

This is within 2-3 points of PC hp.

Interesting. Was the reason purely grind? If so, do you think that the HP generated from monster builder is okay? It seems like it's just about (a little under) Quickleaf's guidelines, but I only really checked level 1-4. Also, I'm planning on using a lot of minions, so this'll likely help with the grind feel, too.

Don't double damage. You can increase damage by 25% over the Level+8 standard without breaking anything.

Yeah, the damage seems okay for now, but I might increase it if I feel it's necessary. Up to about level 4 the damage has been okay, but I'm not sure how it'll look. I'll reevaluate once I see the party in action, and they get used to working together / using all of their abilities. Thanks for the advice (XP sent your way).

 

[S'mon]

I was planning to go for something more cinematic rather than something gritty (which is how I run my normal game). I do plan to really get into the combats in this (big set-piece fights), but I think you're right -I should try to focus on the drama, too. I don't think my mind had drifted there much yet, but I certainly want the drama pretty consistently active (most of the time).

Interesting. Was the reason purely grind? If so, do you think that the HP generated from monster builder is okay? It seems like it's just about (a little under) Quickleaf's guidelines, but I only really checked level 1-4. Also, I'm planning on using a lot of minions, so this'll likely help with the grind feel, too.

On drama - key seems to be having a bunch of cool NPCs for the PCs to riff off of. In my Loudwater 4e game I had a lot of luck with a potential male romantic interest Companion Character NPC for one of the female PCs - not something I do very often, but worked very well and they make a sweet couple Twin Striking everything to death. Helped that I let the romance grow very slowly over a good number of sessions to the epic denouement where he finally asked her to be his date to the Midsummer Ball(!!)

On monster hp - with regular hp, best case scenario is that it doesn't grind as long as you don't use elites or solos, but by about 5th level it's usually getting grindy IME. Halving all monster hp is quick and dirty, but can make some standard monsters feel too squishy, eg big brutes like ogres, giants etc. Using my above formulae is a nice middle ground.

 

[JamesonCourage]

On drama - key seems to be having a bunch of cool NPCs for the PCs to riff off of.

I always use recurring NPCs, so this should be easy. I just need to make sure to make them "cool" and have a reason for the PCs to care about them.

In my Loudwater 4e game I had a lot of luck with a potential male romantic interest Companion Character NPC for one of the female PCs - not something I do very often, but worked very well and they make a sweet couple Twin Striking everything to death. Helped that I let the romance grow very slowly over a good number of sessions to the epic denouement where he finally asked her to be his date to the Midsummer Ball(!!)

Sounds fun

On monster hp - with regular hp, best case scenario is that it doesn't grind as long as you don't use elites or solos, but by about 5th level it's usually getting grindy IME. Halving all monster hp is quick and dirty, but can make some standard monsters feel too squishy, eg big brutes like ogres, giants etc. Using my above formulae is a nice middle ground.

Okay, I'll keep an eye on it as we level. It's funny you say when the grind kicks in, since I mentioned playtesting through about 1-4 and hadn't seen too much of it yet. The solo controller at level 4 seemed a little grindy, but the level 4 elite soldier didn't, and I've heard some warnings against that, too. I'll make sure to keep an eye on things and adjust if it starts to get grindy as the party levels up. Thanks for the advice / warning.

 

[S'mon]

That's one possible solution. I've often been faced with the problem of an unknown number of players for a given session and I'e found it's usually quite easy to adjust encounters up or down, as required: Add/remove a bunch of minions or a regular enemy; replace an elite with a regular enemy or downgrade your solo. I'm sure as you're getting more comfortable with the encounter-building guidelines you'll feel the same!

I find it easier to use Companion Characters, eg if I have 3 regular & 2 drop-in players I might have a single Companion Character I can use if both drop-ins are absent, so that group size is always 4-5, and stat encounters so that typical encounter is EL+1 if only 4 PCs, EL+0 for 5 PCs. This makes TPK slightly more likely if only 3-4 players show up, but as long as you're not using too hard a baseline or outliers it's workable with minimal adjustment. Alternatively you can use 2 Companion Characters to replace the 2 missing PCs, but I think that's a bit much and could detract from the PCs.

Alternative if your group are not brilliant tactically would be to stat the average encounter at EL+0 for 4 PCs, which gives EL-1 if 5 show up, and use a Companion Character if only 3 show. IME players don't notice the difference between 1 point of EL, and if necessary you can always add in 1 extra standard monster - it's much easier to add monsters than deduct them IME. But in general you don't want a supposedly winnable fight to go over EL+4 for 4 PCs, and at low level it's more like EL+3. In general with 4e it's much better to have the occasional fight be easier than expected, than to have the unexpected TPK - the possibility of defeat needs to be on the table, but in practice it can be almost arbitrarily unlikely as long as you don't intervene in play to save the PCs - nothing is worse for a player than thinking the GM will intervene to get the 'right' outcome to a fight, because it makes the fight seem pointless.

 

[S'mon]

Roughly speaking, 4E monsters double in XP value every 4 levels. This means that an Elite monster is worth the same XP as a Standard monster 4 levels higher. To get versions of monsters that "play well" with characters of different levels and remain of approximately the same overall power, I find this a very useful conversion yardstick. You can convert a Standard monster into a Minion 8 levels higher, an Elite 4 levels lower or a Solo 9 levels lower. Given that the 4E maths is non-linear (it approximates linear from around L-2 to L+4, with the asymmetry due to the skewed "to hit" at 8+ rather than 50%), this gives a way to make monsters "level appropriate" over about a 18 level range(!)

To continue this digression (sorry if it's old hat), this provides a neat way to do "sandbox" in 4E. Give each "adventure area" a base level, and if the PCs vary by 4 or more levels from that (a) change up the monsters as above to fit, and (b) for each 4 levels they are above the area, combine encounters in twos. Encounters can't easily be "split" for lower level parties, but that's fine - scaling the Standards to lower level Elites will mean they have at least a chance to daze or immobilise a few critters and GTFO!

This is actually an explanation for some of the threads about "Super-Minions" or "Demi-Minions"; the +8 levels for minionising a Standard can just miss the L-2 to L+4 spread. Some class of monster worth half a Standard would actually be quite handy from this perspective. A Minion that has two "hits" (bloodied on one hit, dead on two)and slightly elevated damage might work, but I haven't had time to experiment extensively, yet.

After a few years of experimenting I've found that converting standard monsters to minions 6 levels higher works best. 4 is too little, 8 too much.
For solos & elites, maintaining XPV works fine, but it doesn't quite work for minions.

 

[Pickles JG]

What an enjoyable & interesting thread!

Here's my bit which slightly contradicts some of the earlier stuff. All combat as it's way I have played D&D for many years not just 4e

The sweet spot for monster levels vs PC levels is much smaller then it would appear at first sight, which I thought pre playing would be +/- 4 levels or more. The number of hits it takes to deal with a villain means this is not so as small differences matter more over all those rolls.

In practice level +/-2 is fine but +/-1 is better. More than that & lower level monsters do not feel threatening but still have lots of HP to grind through. Above that they hit too regularly which make PC defences feel irrelevant & they are too hard to hit consistently which is frustrating & also leads to feelings of grind.

Having a boss significantly higher level works once in a while to emphasise his annoyingness especially if he is supposed to get away, otherwise I would use an elite, converting him as mentioned by Balesir. It's also easy to scale a monster up or down a couple of levels if you want to use something specific, though not more than that or it will mean they are the "wrong" level & at that point they work as elites. Level 6 giants instead of level 10 say seems sad even as elites but it works for NPC types. There were a bunch of LFR adventures that had L5 Drow which felt very cheap pandering to Drow fanboys.

I would also point out that soldiers do not have higher defences than other monsters, they have higher AC. They do a very different job than brutes who are resilient & destructive. A couple of soldiers should work the way defenders do - they split up the parties damage output & stop them focus firing. They need something to protect. Artillery is best as they do lots of damage & are fragile but soldiers can protect anything. They provide another way of keeping your interesting villains alive longer without making them all elites.

Packs of soldiers are not at all interesting but if you remember their roles they can work well as part of a team. They are also relatively vulnerable cf Brutes to parties that target NADs a lot - Monk, Laser Cleric & Wizard would have less of an issue than Ranger, Warlord & Fighter fighting a Soldier but would not be so happy against a Brute.

Noone has mentioned controllers I think but they are another role that is best used sparingly as control effects can be frustrating. It's OK for most fights to have a bit of control but you do not want to load up on lots in one fight. Controllers tend to slow things down & are usually the most complex characters so harder to run. It is also something that seems to have a non linear impact - 2 controllers (PC or Monster) will have more than twice the control effect of 1 & the battle can get very locked down with 3 or more.

I would not bother with free expertise. It is a silly OP feat set but only when you get to level 11 when its +2. Lower level it's good but not mandatory. If you are careful with monster levels ie not too high you will not need this & you can reassess when you approach paragon tier.


Hmm mind you adding expertise free means any old power that do not use weapons/implements will still lag behind but new ones will not.
This shows in the "old" powers like Dragonborn breath which is ability +2/4/6 to hit at the different tiers while more modern ones are +3/6/9. Ie the former "should" be buffed to the 3/6/9. Which is a pain if you use the character builder.
There contradicting myself.

 

[Pickles JG]

- it's much easier to add monsters than deduct them IME......

Good point

In general with 4e it's much better to have the occasional fight be easier than expected, than to have the unexpected TPK

& not just in 4e ...

- the possibility of defeat needs to be on the table, but in practice it can be almost arbitrarily unlikely as long as you don't intervene in play to save the PCs - nothing is worse for a player than thinking the GM will intervene to get the 'right' outcome to a fight, because it makes the fight seem pointless.

Intervention is best done by forgetting recharge powers & bad but not super obviously so tactics but yeah really good point.


PCs are robust in 4e but parties sometimes are not - overwhelmingly the PC deaths I have seem have been in TPKs. If you know an encounter is going to be very tough its a good idea to think out a reason not to TPK the unconscious PCs - a good reason for the bad guys to take them prisoner or for a plausible & "not cheap Deus ex Machina" if such a thing exists - foreshadowing rescuers would do it maybe so it's a "campaign defeat" for the PCs but not a wipe.