D&D 4E JamesonCourage Is Starting A 4e Game; Looking For Pointers

[Storminator]

That's a pretty cool idea Balesir. I would couple it with a tip from Chris Perkins and give info from the bottom "check" up. So it would be: "Chris, you see a bunch of guys milling about. Pat, you see that there are 2 distinct groups. Jean, you see that one of the groups is sporting gang signs. Wang, you can tell they are the Wing Kong!"

PS

 

[Manbearcat]

I don't think soldiers are all bad, if kept at the PC's levels, but I find they're more helpful at slightly higher levels than 1st. If a soldier is given an appropriate mark-punishment ability (such as what a PC defender gets), they can add a tactical element to a fight.

In my last Dark Sun session, I used a couple of at-level soldiers to defend a solo brute. They were psychic warriors and used "Lightning Rush" (an immediate interrupt) to "take hits" for the boss. Also they had regeneration, and no that's not a psychic warrior. The PCs responded by dazing the psychic warriors (you can't take immediate or opportunity actions if dazed) rather than be forced to beat up the soldiers before they could get to the boss.

You don't need to use daze either. When I use NPC fighters, especially knights, the PCs often use forced movement to "open a gap" between the soldier and the boss, then beat up the boss until the knights return. Soldiers have great AC but their Fort/Ref/Will are average like everyone else's. Spellcasters often deal with them.

Just as an aside, use elites a lot. I'm not just talking bosses. If a fight consists of several brutes and a wizard, the PCs will identify and gank the wizard immediately, so make that wizard an elite wizard instead. Same thing if they have a name, are a warlord, or are otherwise distinctive.

This is a great post. With respect to the last part (Elite Wizard), Alternatively, you can give the Wizard an At-Will Immediate Action that lets an adjacent ally (typically Artillery) take a hit for him, you can give Encounter powers to the Wizard's Guards that let them intercept incoming attacks on the Wizard, or you can scatter Runes of Power throughout the room that buff the Wizard (Defense and/or Offense) while standing upon them. If you do it right, they can both tactically enrich a fight in different ways as it forces the PCs to be mobile, force move foes, and isolate the Wizard from his cohorts/runes of empowerment.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I don't think soldiers are all bad, if kept at the PC's levels, but I find they're more helpful at slightly higher levels than 1st. If a soldier is given an appropriate mark-punishment ability (such as what a PC defender gets), they can add a tactical element to a fight.

[SNIP]

Soldiers have great AC but their Fort/Ref/Will are average like everyone else's. Spellcasters often deal with them.

This is more where I'm coming from, but I'm not experienced yet. I'll probably use soldiers occasionally, but I will try to make sure that their defenses are overpowering.

Just as an aside, use elites a lot. I'm not just talking bosses. If a fight consists of several brutes and a wizard, the PCs will identify and gank the wizard immediately, so make that wizard an elite wizard instead. Same thing if they have a name, are a warlord, or are otherwise distinctive.

This was basically my plan, so I'm glad I was thinking something right. Though some wizards should be ganked immediately, the one solo I've designed so far is a Wizard (and of the two elites I've designed, one is a brute, and one is a soldier).

You have the right idea, get people used to the system and their abilities. Let them get comfortable with their characters, then take them for the best ride ever. I think you have the hang of it.

Thanks, that's very encouraging to hear

An Elite Soldier of the same level is most probably fine, and if it's just one it will probably work as designed. Just try to avoid putting them up against higher level ones, or in concentrated numbers. A bit of frustration is okay, but in moderation. I find brutes more interesting because the players will be hitting them more often, which satisfies them. But they have enough hit points to take it and stay in the fight long enough to be a threat. It accomplishes the same goal as a soldier (why will this guy not die?), but reduces the annoyance of constantly missing.

Yep. The tests I ran against the elite brute seemed to line up with this. I'm glad I feel like I'm catching on.

The advice on this thread all serves as good guidelines. It's like a buffet line - Use a bit, all, or none. That which you use you may have to tweak to taste. Use things, and see how they work. If they don't work as expected, or as advertised use something else, or modify. The best thing is to experiment and see what will work best for you, and your group.

Once again good luck. Judging from the character creation session it looks like you guys are going to have a very fun time.

I think so. I'll throw in an update if I hear about our potentially stable 4th player, but even without one, I think the campaign outlook is good.

 

[JamesonCourage]

This just reminded me of something I do that seems to work well: "passive" knowledge.

I read a little about this recently, yep.

Basically, the rules give knowledge DCs required to get info about monsters "in the field". I generally allow a "take 10" style "passive knowledge" on these, but I adjust the DCs a bit (RAW they start at 15 for Heroic, 20 for Paragon and 25 for Epic monsters - I change that to 15+Level/2 to give a more smooth scaling; there are exceptions for "rare" monsters occasionally, too).

I think I like your scaling a bit better. Out of curiosity, is there a reason to just not go with the (updated) DC by level chart? This is the way I'm currently leaning. This way, the DCs always scale to meet the party, and I can calibrate how hard it is based on rarity, and it'll tell me how much they'll get (Easy gets them name, Moderate gets them what it can do, Hard gets them vulnerabilities and weaknesses). Do you think this'll work for me?

This makes Arcana, Religion, Dungeoneering and Nature particularly useful. In cities and towns I do something similar with Streetwise, too - "those guys are just a group of longshoremen, but those guys are wearing street gang insignia and look like trouble..."

Yeah, I can see all of these being useful, and using Streetwise that way.

Edit: the advantage of using knowledge "passively", for me as DM, is that I can check what the PCs will know "for free" beforehand and make notes on my encounter record sheet. They can use a minor action (per the rules) to ask for more, but of course they only get more if they roll more than a 10.

I like it, and I'll probably do this. Thanks for the edit, as it makes it clear why it's useful, and how the rules work if they want more information (which I was curious about). I'll be using "passive knowledge" on stuff (just like passive perception / insight).

 

[JamesonCourage]

Here is what I'm thinking (features/frequency/etc scaling with level of course). Basically Divine Slayer or a lower mental overhead Avenger. Given that this would just be a combat companion summoned via horn, the fly would have no strategic use - just thematic.

As long as the horn summons the creature purely for a fight, yep, you're right. The fly speed now has some tactical use, but nothing really strategic (at least, the large majority of the time). It's a good touch, too.

Valkyrie of Kord[sblock]Level 1 Medium Immortal Humanoid (Angel) - Striker
HP 29; Bloodied 14 Healing Surge 11 @ 7 Initiative +4 Speed 6, Fly 6 (Hover)
AC 17 Fortitude 15 Reflex 14 Will 14

Traits

Chooser of the Slain
The Valkyrie of Kord's attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage.

Standard Actions

[MBA] Culling Spear (Divine, Radiant) * At-Will
l2Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); L + 6 vs. AC
Hit: L + 11 radiant damage.

Mobile Attack * At-Will
Effect: The Valkyrie of Kord moves up to half its speed and uses Culling Spear or Kord's Storm once at any point during the movement. The Valkyrie of Kord doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of the attack.

Kord's Storm (Divine, Lightning, Teleportation) * At-Will
Attack: Ranged 5 (one creature); L + 4 vs. Reflex.
Hit: L + 9 lightning damage and you teleport the target to a square adjacent to you.

Triggered Actions

To the Afterlife With You (Divine, Teleportation) * Encounter
Trigger: The Valkyrie of Kord hits with Culling Spear or Kord's Storm.
Effect (No Action): The attack deals 1d12 extra damage of the same type. If the attack reduces the target to 0 hit points, the Valkyrie of Kord teleports 5 squares.

It Is Not You Who Dies Today (Divine) * Encounter
Trigger: A Valkyrie of Kord's attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points.
Effect (Free Action): One ally within 10 squares gains 5 temporary hit points.[/sblock]

That looks good! It's close to the same as the Slayer, but with a little less rolling (like for damage). If they do need a Striker as a fourth player, I'll likely use this via that magic item. Thanks for going through the trouble, manbearcat. I'd XP you again if I could (hint, hint, readers). Very flavorful, and I'm very pleased with how it ties into the party.

 

[JamesonCourage]

That's a pretty cool idea Balesir. I would couple it with a tip from Chris Perkins and give info from the bottom "check" up. So it would be: "Chris, you see a bunch of guys milling about. Pat, you see that there are 2 distinct groups. Jean, you see that one of the groups is sporting gang signs. Wang, you can tell they are the Wing Kong!"

I'm pretty used to doing this anyways, so I'll likely do this. Thanks for the reminder, though.

With respect to the last part (Elite Wizard), Alternatively, you can give the Wizard an At-Will Immediate Action that lets an adjacent ally (typically Artillery) take a hit for him, you can give Encounter powers to the Wizard's Guards that let them intercept incoming attacks on the Wizard, or you can scatter Runes of Power throughout the room that buff the Wizard (Defense and/or Offense) while standing upon them. If you do it right, they can both tactically enrich a fight in different ways as it forces the PCs to be mobile, force move foes, and isolate the Wizard from his cohorts/runes of empowerment.

I like this more than just making all Wizards elite! I also think it adds a bit more tactically, as players try to separate guards from the Wizard, the Wizard from the runes, etc., rather than just take his higher HP into account. However, basically all named Wizards will likely be Elite (some might be standard, and others Solo, though).

I plan on basically moving the mechanical bits to fit the narrative. Most things will be within their grasp, theoretically, but maybe not practically. Certain "high level" NPCs will likely just be solos of several levels higher, rather than me just saying "nope, they're level 15, so I guess you have zero chance of beating them." Of course, there will be exceptions (attacking Asmodeus or an old dragon is a death sentence if they're inclined to defend themselves), but I'll scale most things to be within their reach.

 

[Manbearcat]

@JamesonCourage Its very heady and responsible GMing that you're playtesting 4e combat as much as you are. That would be one thing that I would very much advise burgeoning 4e GMs to do (as a service to themselves, their players, and their game). Regardless of how long you've been GMing and how good you are it, the 4e tactical interface has considerable nuance that requires thoughtful, attentive care and the more you practice, the more you will have eureka moments. I suspect most 4e GMs can probably point to several eureka moments where they went from utter "Durrrr" to "got it!" I know I've had plenty.

I can't recall if you run dungeon crawls as not (I seem to think that perhaps you do not?). If you do, I posted something earlier in the 4e what modules have you run? thread that runs down some keys for translating old school D&D dungeon crawling to 4e. You may want to give that a look if you do run dungeon crawls. The primary take-home there is "put pressure on their healing surges and make extended rests difficult to come by."

Do you have an idea, generally, of what types of non-combat challenges (genre-wise) that you're planning on putting before your players and how it fits in with their deployable resources (skills and other)? The reason I ask is because your group setup may be perfect for a particularly fun Skill Challenge layered in a Skill Challenge (each success or failure in the micro challenge acrues success/failure in the macro skill challenge) adventure that I did with my PCs in low-mid Paragon Tier (that could easily be done for early heroic by just switching out goblins for giants). It involved the PCs being hired on as protection and functional mountaineers by an Earnest Hemmingway type for an Alpine Style climb (that he had failed at a few times before - and lost his few climbing buddies both times) of the tallest, and most dangerous, mountain of the known world. It inspired by "Touching the Void" if you're familiar with the content. It was basically a vertical/outdoors dungeon crawl on the side of a sheer, frozen mountain, with glacial ravines, precarious snowdrifts, avalanches, digging shelter into the snow of the sheer mountain face, dealing with horrible environmental conditions (and a Disease/Condition Track), fighting off ice creatures/predators and finally reaching the top where he placed his banner. Getting down from such a climb (the Alpine Way) would basically be impossible, so they took the "easier" way out...one which led them getting lost in a series of caves that turned out to be an ancient, lost to time, Frost Giant stronghold.

Your 3 PCs are built for something like that. They all likely have Athletics. The Monk surely has Acrobatics (or a high, passive check). They likely most have Perception. Maybe Endurance. If you can get Nature and Dungeoneering amidst the group then a challenge such as that could be rewarding. Even if that isn't to your genre tastes (or your players), I still recommend checking out "Touching the Void". Its an extraordinary, riveting documentary with particularly keen insight into the human condition.

 

[JamesonCourage]

@JamesonCourage Its very heady and responsible GMing that you're playtesting 4e combat as much as you are. That would be one thing that I would very much advise burgeoning 4e GMs to do (as a service to themselves, their players, and their game). Regardless of how long you've been GMing and how good you are it, the 4e tactical interface has considerable nuance that requires thoughtful, attentive care and the more you practice, the more you will have eureka moments. I suspect most 4e GMs can probably point to several eureka moments where they went from utter "Durrrr" to "got it!" I know I've had plenty.

Yeah, it's about how I thought it'd play out, but practical experience for picking up on the nuances / alerting me to rules I don't know is good, too (like looking up dual-damage powers, which I have done). I used to play chess against myself, too, when I was around 11, and then played other games as I got older (M:TG, etc.). I am looking forward to actual game experience, though, as I'm sure that'll be even more enlightening.

I can't recall if you run dungeon crawls as not (I seem to think that perhaps you do not?). If you do, I posted something earlier in the 4e what modules have you run? thread that runs down some keys for translating old school D&D dungeon crawling to 4e. You may want to give that a look if you do run dungeon crawls. The primary take-home there is "put pressure on their healing surges and make extended rests difficult to come by."

I don't run them, no, but I'll likely get a little more towards that direction than I'm used to. The advice at the end of your quote, above, is something I've been keeping in mind, and I have tentative plans to drain healing surges via skill challenges when I feel it's appropriate. Also, harassing them or stopping them from getting extended rests might come up at some point, but I definitely don't plan to do that regularly at all.

Do you have an idea, generally, of what types of non-combat challenges (genre-wise) that you're planning on putting before your players and how it fits in with their deployable resources (skills and other)? The reason I ask is because your group setup may be perfect for a particularly fun Skill Challenge layered in a Skill Challenge (each success or failure in the micro challenge acrues success/failure in the macro skill challenge) adventure that I did with my PCs in low-mid Paragon Tier (that could easily be done for early heroic by just switching out goblins for giants).

Hmm, that sounds a bit complicated, since I don't really ever take notes other than NPC names (and that's usually for the players to look at, not for myself). Also, I don't have much in mind for the non-combat challenges yet, other than making their way up a large, cold mountain. So, navigating, climbing, protecting themselves from the elements, keeping an eye out, concealing their presence, etc. will all come up. I'll likely drain a few healing surges via this challenge prior to any combats in the game, providing the players bite on the hook I'll be throwing out. But, for now, let's take a closer look at your (skill challenge [skill challenge]).

It involved the PCs being hired on as protection and functional mountaineers by an Earnest Hemmingway type for an Alpine Style climb (that he had failed at a few times before - and lost his few climbing buddies both times) of the tallest, and most dangerous, mountain of the known world. It inspired by "Touching the Void" if you're familiar with the content. It was basically a vertical/outdoors dungeon crawl on the side of a sheer, frozen mountain, with glacial ravines, precarious snowdrifts, avalanches, digging shelter into the snow of the sheer mountain face, dealing with horrible environmental conditions (and a Disease/Condition Track), fighting off ice creatures/predators and finally reaching the top where he placed his banner. Getting down from such a climb (the Alpine Way) would basically be impossible, so they took the "easier" way out...one which led them getting lost in a series of caves that turned out to be an ancient, lost to time, Frost Giant stronghold.

Well, this is pretty relevant to what I had in mind to start us off! But, mine won't be as exploratory / accidental. They will be climbing on the outside / exploring the inside of a tall, cold mountain, though, so all that stuff you listed I can gank for any skill challenge they perform. Thanks

Your 3 PCs are built for something like that. They all likely have Athletics. The Monk surely has Acrobatics (or a high, passive check). They likely most have Perception. Maybe Endurance. If you can get Nature and Dungeoneering amidst the group then a challenge such as that could be rewarding.

I posted which characters had what skills earlier in the thread, but here it is again:

Monk: Bluff, Insight, Stealth, Thievery.
Warpriest: Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, Religion.
Fighter: Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate.

It looks like they're not matching up with your expectations for the most part (the Monk has a pretty decent Acrobatics untrained). But, if we do get that fourth player, it might really round them out. I won't know until I know whether that player is playing, and then I'll need to sit down with her (and the Monk / Warpriest player) and make her character.

Even if that isn't to your genre tastes (or your players), I still recommend checking out "Touching the Void". Its an extraordinary, riveting documentary with particularly keen insight into the human condition.

Hmm, I may or may not do that. I'm not familiar with it, and I don't usually watch documentaries alone. Maybe if I can get a friend together and watch it, I will. I'll check it out beforehand, though, so that I can get a feel for it. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Manbearcat]

I posted which characters had what skills earlier in the thread, but here it is again:

Monk: Bluff, Insight, Stealth, Thievery.
Warpriest: Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, Religion.
Fighter: Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate.

It looks like they're not matching up with your expectations for the most part (the Monk has a pretty decent Acrobatics untrained). But, if we do get that fourth player, it might really round them out. I won't know until I know whether that player is playing, and then I'll need to sit down with her (and the Monk / Warpriest player) and make her character.

Yup, I recall you posting them. Life fatigue has put my brain in neutral.

That is actually quite a good mix. All 3 characters have trained means of engagement in exploration and social challenges. What's more, each of them will have either a primary or secondary of either Strength of Wisdom which will give them fully functional capacity in Athletics, Nature, Perception, Dungeoneering tests. Given that, points of entry toward furthering an evolving mountain climbing trek will be readily available.

Beyond that, truth be told, I find micro-failures and lost Skill Challenges to be as much, if not more, satisfying experiences for our gaming, and narrative dynamism, than successes are.

 

[JamesonCourage]

That is actually quite a good mix. All 3 characters have trained means of engagement in exploration and social challenges. What's more, each of them will have either a primary or secondary of either Strength of Wisdom which will give them fully functional capacity in Athletics, Nature, Perception, Dungeoneering tests. Given that, points of entry toward furthering an evolving mountain climbing trek will be readily available.

I do like their skill selection, honestly. I think it'll be mostly okay. If I get that fourth player, too, then we'll have enough of a rounded group to really feel good about it.

Beyond that, truth be told, I find micro-failures and lost Skill Challenges to be as much, if not more, satisfying experiences for our gaming, and narrative dynamism, than successes are.

Yeah, failures are a lot of fun, as a GM. Some really interesting stuff has come out of them. I basically agree about the narrative dynamism, since you're basically a lot more likely to get an unexpected result from failure than from success. I think I might try a (skill challenge [skill challenge]) setup, now that I've spent some time thinking about it. It could be really interesting, and I want to try it. I normally present skill challenges openly to my players, but I don't think I will about the overarching skill challenge if I go with it. I'll let you know my thoughts on it once play has actually taken place.