D&D 5E New D&D Next Playtest package is up (19/9/2013) [merged threads]

[Mistwell]

Not actually true, the experience reward for an average encounter at level 1 is only 20 xp. It still requires 12.5 average level encounters to reach level 2, pretty much the same as 3e, and slightly more than 4e.

They've made the numbers smaller, but the proportions are still the same.

Yeah I kept hearing the party should advance fast through the first three levels, but in our playtest we're not finding that to be the case. They're advancing about as fast as "normal", maybe even a tad slower.

 

[dd.stevenson]

I don't want to speak for him, but I feel the same way and I can explain why I feel that way.

Ah. Yeah, that's a vibe I can get.

But here's the thing: I've created some pretty rich characters in 3E that relied on a one level dip to support the concept. And when we switched back to 2E, that was something my group all missed. Further, when we want to get all munchkin up in that, we also miss the 1 level dips.

I think my real take away for now is that we really do need a good downtime system, if for nothing else than to reconcile the multiclass system with some of the more popular playstyles.

 

[GX.Sigma]

1. Are attack rolls "strength checks"?

Nope. How to Play, page 1: attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws are different things.

2. If a spell requires a save to avoid damage (rather than a roll to-hit), does that count "when you attack a creature and hit"?

Nope. It's a spell, not an attack.

a High Elf rogue would be able to use sneak attack with ray of frost and chill touch (which have attack rolls)

Huh. I thought Sneak Attack specifically said "weapon attack," but I guess it doesn't.

3. (an associated issue) What is the "caster level" of a level 10 High Elf rogue? 1? 10? What if at level 4 she bought Arcane Initiate? 1? 7? 10? How much damage does Ray of Frost do for a High Elf at that level? My best guess: 3d8, but that means 3d8+3d6 with sneak attack, which seems high. What if (with the new rules for initiate and a first-level spell as well) she casts magic missile? Then I think no.

The rules never define what a caster level is, but the intention seems clear from the multiclassing rules: the number of "full caster" levels you have (cleric, druid, mage) plus half your "half caster" levels (bard, paladin, and ranger). So, for a High Elf Rogue 10, that's caster level 0.

4. (another associated issue, this time for a cleric) Does the extra attack granted by the War Priest ability allow you to cast Sacred Flame a second time? I think it must.

No. Why would it? Sacred Flame is a spell, not an attack action (it doesn't even require an attack roll).

I always liked the simplest way of preventing cherry picking --the monk in 3E - once you choose to switch to another class -- you can never again advance in the class(s) that you have left.

What if I'm a fighter/mage, and I want to keep getting better at fighting and keep getting better at magic?

I am disappointed in the whole multiclass idea as written. The requirements are a start but don't go far enough.
...
A person only has so much time and ability and every profession requires vastly different research, training or experience to advance.

What if there's a school for fighter/mages in my campaign world? How much you want to limit it really depends on the campaign, and I don't think the game needs to have any limitations as a default. A simple "talk to your DM to see if multiclassing is an option for your character" is plenty.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

What I find odd is the save DCs are 8 + prof bonus + ability bonus. It makes it less smooth, but I realize they probably want to reign in some of those save DCs for characters without prof bonuses to their saves.

My thoughts on the Bard so far:
-It seems like the Bard is the only class with only 4 ability increases/feats. They need to change that, as it was my criticism of every class that had only 4 last session.
-Bardic music only once per encounter, and you can't choose a different one later in the encounter if you stop performing, seems simple enough. Also I noticed the refresh is after 10 minutes, but a short rest is still 1 hour.
-So far the Bard Colleges are good for a core Bard, but I feel there needs to be a bit more variance between them. One of them would be a more spellcastery Bard, could be something that should be toyed with.
-I miss the ability to use Suggestion on fascinated targets with Bardic music, the College of Wit really needs that brought back from the old Bard abilities.
-Save profs of Intelligence and Charisma, I feel there's a problem with those 2 saves since they're so far the less commonly used ones. Granted Bards should be proficient in Charisma saves. That leaves Int saves. I think it might be better if different subclasses grant a different secondary save prof.
-I miss Bards getting 6th level spells, I know that being half casters is appropriate for most cases of the Bard, but some could be 3/4 or maybe full casters.
-"Implements", I don't approve of only musical instruments offering spellcasting bonuses. What if the Bard is a vocalist or a dancer? I think at least wands should be added. And doesn't that just make it odd for College of Valor Bards, with a sword in one hand and a lute in the other.
-Countercharm, Improved Dispel and Jack of All Trades I approve of. Battle magic is good, but it's something I feel could also be College of Valor only, if something is needed to make other colleges have more options to input later.
-The extra dice of damage for Call to Battle is probably easier to remember than, +2 I had to call out for the Inspire Courage all the time when I played one.
- Magical Secrets is something I feel a Bard should get at a lower level, starting with just 1 new non-bard spell learned, and gaining more as the Bard levels up.
-College of Valor is good Bardic version of a Warlord, but I feel if any subclass of the Bard deserves a d8 hit die, it's that one.
-Song of Rest is something I feel could be moved the the greater Bard class.
-I don't think the last abilities of both subclasses should be a free spell known, plus a free casting. I feel it should be another bardic music use, though maybe something that only happens once per performance.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks -- for the most part, that matches my intuition.

The rules never define what a caster level is, but the intention seems clear from the multiclassing rules: the number of "full caster" levels you have (cleric, druid, mage) plus half your "half caster" levels (bard, paladin, and ranger). So, for a High Elf Rogue 10, that's caster level 0.

*gets it* Right; as a zero-level caster, you still do 1d8 with the cantrip. So 1d8+3d6 (SA). Fine.

No. Why would it? Sacred Flame is a spell, not an attack action (it doesn't even require an attack roll).

Because if the same character were casting a Ray of Frost (say the Cleric had Arcane Initiate), which requires a roll even though it is a spell, it would.

 

[Kobold Stew]

-"Implements", I don't approve of only musical instruments offering spellcasting bonuses. What if the Bard is a vocalist or a dancer? I think at least wands should be added. And doesn't that just make it odd for College of Valor Bards, with a sword in one hand and a lute in the other.

Especially playing the Lute 1-handed!

There's a couple of issues with tools that need cleaning up. For one, some embrace every item in a class (e.g. mounts, thieves tools, navigation tools) and some do not (e.g. musical instruments, artisan tools, and (I presume) gaming tools).

Instruments: bards choose three of presumably an infinite number.
Artisans: presumably from the 12 classes of artisan and the 12 classes of commoner, so (e.g.) one could choose Blacksmith and sailor tools.
Gaming: I think one should at least have to choose between board games, dice, and cards.

Further, among instruments, one should be able to choose among various performance types, and so "voice" "skaldic poetry" "flyting" "interpretative dance" should all be legitimate choices.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Because if the same character were casting a Ray of Frost (say the Cleric had Arcane Initiate), which requires a roll even though it is a spell, it would.

The War Priest feature says "you can attack one extra time when you take the attack action."

"When you take the attack action" is pretty clear: it refers to the action called Attack in the How to Play document (a normal, basic attack); as opposed to the Cast a Spell action. "Attack one extra time" is only slightly less precise. It could be argued that it should allow attack spells because it doesn't specifically say "weapon attack," but the facts are:

• It doesn't say you can cast a spell.
• "Extra" implies that it should be the same kind of attack as the one you normally make when you take the attack action.
• Higher level spells call for attack rolls too, but it's insane to think that a Fighter 11 / Mage 3 can make an attack and cast two Melf's acid arrows with one action.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Cool -- makes good sense. Thanks.

 

[Remathilis]

Mainly because they let people pick and choose the best abilities each level they went up. This allowed a large amount of min-maxing.

This hit me in the face when a player at a convention pointed out to me his logic how going up one level of Sorcerer when the rest of your levels were Fighter was the best idea. He pointed out 2 or 3 first level spells that gave enough benefits to entirely outweigh all the benefits you got for most levels of fighter. His argument was that a 19 Fighter/1 Sorcerer was almost ALWAYS better than a 20 Fighter. And he was right. A bunch of other people pointed out that a 1 Barbarian/1 Sorcerer/18 Fighter was almost always better still. There was certainly an argument to make that a 1 Cleric/1 Barbarian/1 Sorcerer/17 Fighter was even better...though you might be losing too much BAB at that point.

That's just the simplest form of the min-maxing that occurs. Add in PrC, Racial levels, and feats and it got much, much worse.

D&D was always created as a class based game. It isn't a point based game. I like the class based nature of it. I know a lot of other people do as well. When completely free multiclassing exists, it removes all benefit of having a class based system.

I recall once, a long time ago, popping on on the CharOps board to see the best way to build a Shadowdancer. It turns out, the best way is Barbarian1/Fighter1/Rogue3/Guildthief5/Shadowdancer10. That's TOTALLY what I think when I think "shadowdancer", right?

I'd like to see either some strict limit on MC (two/three classes max) to keep dippers from doing so. The pre-req idea is a serviceable substitute.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I can't relate. Why do you think that a single level of a class doesn't support a character's identity?

I won't go so far as to say that it can't, but generally, by not taking more than one level in a class, it signifies that the character doesn't identify with that class and was only after the readily gained mechanics. Otherwise, the character would continue to take occasional levels in the class.

I don't think it would bother me so much if the classes were more generic, such as in True20 or Star Wars Saga Edition. There, they're little more than thematic scaffolding for grouping abilities. But not so in D&D. Classes are character archetypes. They can be blended, but should not be looted.