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Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

It's always tough to make analogies as the role of the GM is a bit unique, but let's consider:

- How well does football work if the referee or the quarterback is inept?

- How well does baseball work if the referee or the pitcher is inept?

I think most games rely on players, especially key players, NOT being inept.

I know I'm digging way back in the thread, but I'm trying to catch up.

ALl of these games work perfectly well actually. Granted, one team might not do very well, but, that's not the game. If you have a bad pitcher, the game of baseball is completely unaffected. And, in actual fact, the rules are such that the results of having a bad pitcher is pretty easily predicted. A bad pitcher means your team will lose more often than not. The game is completely unaffected.

Granted, bad referee is a bit different, because now the rules are being affected. The bad ref is either making up new rules on the spot, or is interpreting the rules in an unacceptable way. But, in either case, the problem is the ref, not the rules. The rules are perfectly fine.
 

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I wouldn't word it quite like that.

I will admit that it is possible that 30 or so years of experience with the game factors into my lack of difficulty with the problems others claim to be having. Or it could be table style. But regardless, the fact that it is not a problem at some tables should encourage those who have the problem to be humble enough to ask if there is something they are doing wrong, or some skill they need to learn to alleviate the difficulty.

To use another game as an analogy, I was always told that Monopoly took forever to play, 6-8 hours for some games and that games would just drag on and on. Indeed some of my formative experiences with Monopoly suggested this was a real problem. As a kid I didn't mind the long games, but as I got older I soured a little on the play experience. Then I come to find out, the whole problem has to do, not with the game, but with a house-rule a large number of people accept as part of the game, but which is not actually in the rules. Turns out if you eliminate this house rule and follow the actual rules, Monopoly is only a 2 hour game. Still today, I talk to people who, because they play the game not actually according to how it was designed, think Monopoly is a game that last hours and hours and hours. Indeed, the majority of people I talk to are convinced Monopoly is one of the longest games out there. But assertion does not equal proof and sometimes its possible that, yes indeed, most people just play the game wrong.

Now, I am not saying most people play RPGs wrong. If you are having fun, then its all good. But if there is a perceived problem, but there is certain subset of players who say the problem does not exist for them, then it is possible that those who have the problem are doing something in a manner different from the other group and there is an equally valid possibility that learning a certain set of skills, or approaching the game from a slightly different angle might alleviate the problem without resorting to changing the whole game.

And, again, we're being told that there's nothing wrong with the mechanics, we're just inept. Nice.
 

And, again, we're being told that there's nothing wrong with the mechanics, we're just inept.
To be fair, in the quoted passage we're also told that it's more important that we change our playstyles than that we make any changes to the mechanics. (Although I thought that forcing everyone to play one style of guitar was a 4e thing, and that 3E was meant to be this hugely flexible game.)
 

Granted, bad referee is a bit different, because now the rules are being affected. The bad ref is either making up new rules on the spot, or is interpreting the rules in an unacceptable way. But, in either case, the problem is the ref, not the rules. The rules are perfectly fine.
I believe that is exactly the point we were making.

(Although I thought that forcing everyone to play one style of guitar was a 4e thing, and that 3E was meant to be this hugely flexible game.)
It's a difference of scope. In this case, we're talking about a very specific set of playstyle decisions that are needed to create a problem, and you can basically change anything to remove that problem; it's knocking down a house of cards. As is readily apparent from this thread, a huge number of people, who have many radically different playstyles, do not have this issue.

In the other case, we're talking about a case where many of those decisions simply aren't available in the rules at all (such as making characters with unequal "protagonism", according to you) or are strongly discouraged (such as making characters that don't fit into one of the "roles").
 

In this case, we're talking about a very specific set of playstyle decisions that are needed to create a problem
You mean anything but "storyteller" with a high degree of GM force?

As is readily apparent from this thread, a huge number of people, who have many radically different playstyles, do not have this issue.
That's not evident to me at all. You, [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] all seem to me to have very similar playstyles.
 

I think I've always read those references to disregarding of rolls outside the death context as pertaining to random generation or random effect rolls rather than action resolution in the stricter sense. And likewise, on p 9, I've read that as an invitation to change the rules (ie the GM is an arbiter of what the rules are) rather than to suspend them mid-resolution.

I get why "random generation" is different than "action resolution", what's an example of a random effect roll? Does changing the killing damage roll to something else count as suspending mid-resolution?

Is ignoring random encounter rolls when the party is weak (in the 1e DMG) to deciding to give the monster fewer hp in the middle of the encounter (spirit of the 2e one) to just making the character not die when the dice had it happen in combat (1e DMG) just one big slippery slope of fudging? Or is there a hard line between "action resolution" and the others?

Anyway, it never occurred to me to read it as not allowing judicious use of general fudging, but the paragraph and section it's in seem muddled - it talks about when the DM should roll the die and when the DM should ignore them back to back.

1e DMB pg 110 said:
ROLLING THE DICE AND CONTROL OF THE GAME
In many situations it is correct and fun to have the players dice such things as melee hits or saving throws. However, it is your right to control the dice at any time and to roll dice for the players. You might wish to do this to keep them from knowing some specific fact. You also might wish to give them an edge in finding a particular clue, e.g. a secret door that leads to a complex of monsters and treasures that will be especially entertaining. You do have every right to overrule the dice at any time if there is a particular course of events that you would like to have occur. In making such a decision you should never seriously harm the party or a non-player character with your actions. "ALWAYS GIVE A MONSTER AN EVEN BREAK!"

This is followed by a paragraph on what rolls should always be made in secret (listening hiding, finding secret doors, etc...), then one that says when the rules don't cover something "instead of being forced to make a decision, take the option to allow the dice to control the situation" by assigning a reasonable probability of success. And then finally the one arbitrating death.

The wanting to give an edge didn't seem to make sense in light of just having the DM rolling the dice, and instead to go with controlling them and the overruling sentence following it. The "not seriously hurting" seems to mean that the fudging doesn't have to just help them.

Now I'm wondering why he just doesn't say to give them a bonus on the roll or to give some clue about the secret door that makes it apparent it was badly hidden and not requiring the roll at all. Is it almost like he wants to rail-road them but hide it?
 
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Those aren't mind control, they're mechanisms for adjudicating NPC and monster reactions.
They're mechanisms for allowing one character to control another character's behavior. Which is mind control.

In any game I've played in, a player can decide when to roll the dice. Here is one example: the GM describes the room that the PC is walking into, including the fact that within it are two orcs. The player of that PC then says "OK, I cut them down, starting with the one nearest to me!" That player has decided to roll the dice - in the case of D&D, a d20 attack roll.
That's a dodge. The player may announce an action and physically roll a d20, but it's still up to the DM to decide in game terms whether the attack happens or not and whether the die is rolled as part of it. It's much like a batter requesting a timeout in baseball-it's a request that's usually granted but it is still the umpire's decision and he occasionally rejects it.

And there are a variety of cases where the DM might decide that some intervening action or condition prevents the player from doing what he announced or otherwise rule that the action does not happen. For example, the player might have been unknowingly enchanted in a way that prevents him from making the attack. Or the rest of the party might have wiped out most of the enemies and the DM may simply abrogate the attack roll and say "never mind, assume you just mop the last enemy up". If circumstances make the attack unwise (such as a character attacking a civilian in the middle of town, or attacking a clearly superior NPC), the DM may halt the action and remind the player of the circumstances that the character knows but which the player may have forgotten or underestimated, and in rare cases may even dictate that the action does not happen (such as in a case where a player attempts to commit an evil act and the DM refuses to allow it as a form of censorship). On a more basic level, if the room is loud and the DM doesn't hear the player's request and moves on, it's possible the attack doesn't happen at all. I suspect most of us skip a player's turn now and then.

Not common events individually, but even if they don't happen, it's still the DM's choice to let the player's attack happen, and he can still apply any modifiers he wants (and is explicitly encouraged in the rules to do so) and adjudicate the result in a variety of ways. The player has no meaningful control over any part of the action other than his character's decision to attempt or intend to perform it. That decision is important, and is the impetus for whatever rulings the DM makes. But ultimately, the player has very little control over the situation, and no D&D player ever has the right to dictate that any action happens or that any die to resolve it is rolled.

This whole thread, together with the dozens of others like it, is proof that there is no "neutral" rule set of the sort you describe. In particular, player protagonism that is a function of the GM, rather than the rules, is not really protagonism at all - as I know from my own experience, it is vulnerable at myriad points as the GM comes under intolerable conflicts of interest due to the conflicting demands of maintaining antagonism and adjudicating fairly.
I don't recall describing a neutral set of rules. The rules aren't neutral, they're simply a minority influence on the outcomes of interest, while the DM is the main influence. Some DMs are more or less passive than others, but it's still their choice to be that way.

I think that last sentence is very telling, though. The people in your experience may not have tolerated those conflicts, but that doesn't mean that they can't be tolerated and dealt with at all. Being a DM is inherently a massive conflict of interest: you're supposed to play all the NPCs, which means honestly depicting behavior that may be contrary to or antagonistic to the PCs', but you're also trying to create a rewarding play experience for the players. Everyone playing D&D deals with variations of that conflict.

And yes, players can express protagonism even when the DM controls everything. Just because he's in control doesn't mean he can't listen to the players, it simply means he has the choice of whether or not to listen to them. This is where D&D becomes analogous to the actor/director relationship in drama. An actor has to read the lines on the script, and do whatever the director says, but that doesn't mean he is exerting no influence over the final performance.

By insisting that the rules of 3E/PF not change, you are restricting all players to one approach - namely, one in which GM force is required to balance casters and fighters. That's a fine approach as far as it goes, but for those who want to play a different sort of game 3E/PF won't deliver. As I've said, achieving protagonism via GM force, while not quite contradictory, is an extremely unstable base for satisfying play.
I'm not insisting that they don't change, merely that they don't change in one particular way that I think is exclusionary and poorly thought out. There are many changes I would make. But if by restricting all players to one approach, you mean an approach where the DM is in control of the game, then yes. That's fundamental to the game.

If you want a game that posits different roles, you really should design a different game from page 1, and I don't imagine it would look much like D&D. Might it be a good game? Sure. But it's not relevant here.

4e, at least, has rules - guidelines, if you like - for the GM. It says, "Within these parameters the game will deliver what it promises. Step outside them, and we - the designers - don't vouch for the play experience you will get". This is not an issue of GM skill, then, except the skill of reading English and then doing what it says.
I think those types of guidelines are strongly implicit (and often explicit) in most games. Of course, in 3e, a lot of the DMG was devoted to talking about making various rulings and alterations and discussing the implications of them, and the first thing in the PHB is rule 0, and it's pretty strongly implied that the DM is responsible for using the rules to create the experience he wants.
 

You mean anything but "storyteller" with a high degree of GM force?
No. As [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION] noted, the rules themselves don't contain the outcome you described; they're generally well-balanced. That outcome is necessarily caused by the players and/or DM taking explicit (if possibly unintentional) actions to disrupt the balance within the rules.

And, as I noted, what you call "GM force", is not a style, it's part of the game. Style is created through application of said force. If one of us says to the players "go make a bunch of 3e core-only characters using the standard array", and the other sits down with the players and custom designs modified classes for each of them, both of us have exercised the same amount of force (setting character creation parameters and procedures), to different effect. Very different styles.

That's not evident to me at all. You, [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] all seem to me to have very similar playstyles.
Seriously? No offense to those two or anyone else, but we surely don't. You might refer to a rather vigorous debate between me and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] about a month ago on whether a DM should use the RAW or how to interpret them for some minor application of Knowledge skills.

Or really, any post that any of us makes about our games.
 
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I know I'm digging way back in the thread, but I'm trying to catch up.

ALl of these games work perfectly well actually. Granted, one team might not do very well, but, that's not the game. If you have a bad pitcher, the game of baseball is completely unaffected. And, in actual fact, the rules are such that the results of having a bad pitcher is pretty easily predicted. A bad pitcher means your team will lose more often than not. The game is completely unaffected.

Granted, bad referee is a bit different, because now the rules are being affected. The bad ref is either making up new rules on the spot, or is interpreting the rules in an unacceptable way. But, in either case, the problem is the ref, not the rules. The rules are perfectly fine.

I think the ref is the better analogy. Note that this was in response to the statement that:

ImperatorK said:
My point was, even if my games are perfectly balanced, that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with the system I'm using. In 3.X/PF classes are not balanced. Requiring the DM to be not inept for the game to work properly is a failure of the game design.

I submit that, if the umpire is inept, then the game of baseball will not work properly. I believe your statement matches my own - the problem is the ref, not the rules. That is, the game design does not fail when the DM is inept - the DM fails.

EIT: Of course, I posted this before reading ahnehnois' response, which mirrors my comments above.
 
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Being a DM is inherently a massive conflict of interest: you're supposed to play all the NPCs, which means honestly depicting behavior that may be contrary to or antagonistic to the PCs', but you're also trying to create a rewarding play experience for the players. Everyone playing D&D deals with variations of that conflict.

I don't think that every DM plays this way, nor do I think that you've described a conflict of interest. (I think you're close, but not quite there. You've left out something very important.)

I think the fact that you think this must be a conflict of interest is telling, especially in light of the topic.
 

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