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Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

One guideline I have for my own game is that if I as DM can't think of (at least) three different ways for the PCs to deal with a problem, it's probably a single-point-of-failure roadblock and needs to be rethought.


Players, lacking the DM point of view, often don't see some or all viable solutions due to various reasons such as imperfect information, having a bad day, misunderstandings, poor communication, missing players, or not being invested in the problem and wanting to go somewhere else.

Conversely, they often come up with completely unanticipated solutions, some of which are so good they just work, some of which have varying chances of success and some of which aren't viable.

Sometimes they come up with something that shouldn't strictly work due to hidden info they aren't privy to, but is so awesome it's worth changing the setup so that it does work.

I find that too many failures drains the morale of players, and may indicate a lack of understanding of the true situation and perhaps a need to discuss things OOC.

As for any tests or duels, I find the initial conditions, assumptions (particularly unspoken assumptions) and gamestyle of the test are very subjective and severely prejudice any findings.

Spellcasters are better off the more infomation their players have about the setting. They work better in an ongoing campaign where the adjudication style and tastes of the DM are well known. Knowing the subset of monsters the DM uses and their weaknesses and strengths, typical dangers and how to prepare for them beforehand, the way magic works, availability of magic items, magic item creation rules, character generation rules etc etc. Non-spellcasters, especially fighters, work better when parachuted blind into an arbitrary setting, as they have less to work with and better inherent defences and raw hp.

A major contributer to the strength of mid and higher level spellcasters in 3.x is spell DCs improve with a higher casting stat, and feats can stack the DC higher. 3.x casters get more spells than in previous editions. So save or suck/die spells are more likely to work (especially if targetted at a weak save) and the casters can have more of them.

Another is being able to rely on scrolls and wands for a bunch of utility magic, healing wants etc. Restricting or banning these weakens spellcasters.
 
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I've actually run a sorcerer through the beginning of RHoD. It was fun.



Well, you know I have a wizard. Created with 28 point buy, if you don't mind. I also happen to have a cleric if anyone needs something to build off of quickly. Both are made using core only material; if you are comfortable with non-core options, I imagine I could come up with something rather interesting.

Noted that Dandu has dibs on the Wizard.

Though we will be using Pathfinder rules, not 3.5.
 

And, in coming full circle, many people's problem with 3.X is that spellcasters are granted those abilities by RAW, and must be remediated by either Rule 0 or focused non-neutral scene framing. Which is to say predetermined counter-measures, or focused enemy attention based on the presence of the spell effect, not necessarily the effects.

disclaimer: I haven't read the intervening posts yet; I just wanted to point out its interesting that both sides of this discussion have characteristic ways of framing what's going on. Personally, I'd say: Spellcasters aren't unconditionally granted any powers. RAW provides highly conditional possibilities. And not remediation, but fair arbitration.
 


Noted that Dandu has dibs on the Wizard.

Though we will be using Pathfinder rules, not 3.5.
i must confess that you have me at a disadvantage, as I do not play PF and, indeed, thought that we were talking about D&D 3.5e.

Still, I can certainly do it.
 

If you guys are going to do this then you need to do it right and stay true to the thematic material of this thread; Louie the Lizard Man has to make an appearance (preferably guard duty rotation related appearance), the PC Wizard needs to be named Bob, the Black Dragons Lair needs to be in a lizardman-servitor-infested swamp and it has to be a natural trap laden sinkhole with a muck-filled cavern at the bottom. And the most interesting-man-in-the-world, balrog-impeding Chamberlain has to be riffed off the love-child of the Dos Equis guy and Gandalf.

It wouldn't be scientifically rigorous otherwise :D My wand of xp is out of charges, regrettably :D
 

i must confess that you have me at a disadvantage, as I do not play PF and, indeed, thought that we were talking about D&D 3.5e.

Still, I can certainly do it.

I have confidence you can do it. :)

The Pathfinder ruleset is the one I am most familiar with designing for, and it is the 3.x ruleset most widely used at the moment, so thus the most relevant to this discussion. Plus, its just a little more fun with its different options for the classes, such as those for the wizard schools.

So any takers for the other classes? I'll try and post character guidelines tomorrow.
 


Would you mind if I tried out the Pathfinder Sorcerer options? I had a partially assembled Pathfinder Sorcerer from an exercise long ago intended to figure out exactly what Pathfinder changed with regards to sorcerers and what effect it has. I must say, I found the APG Human Sorcerer Favored Class option to be quite interesting.
 
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Just for giggles, I'm going to go back to my two hill comparison for a second. But, with a new example. Honest. :D

On hill 1 we have the Tarrasque. CR 20 monster. That represents the fighter.

On hill 2 we have an Old Red Dragon. Again, CR 20 monster. That represents the caster.

Now, which hill is an easier fight? They should be the same, but they aren't. Big T is a chump because any flying group will simply stay out of range and bombard him until he drops. I actually watched a 17th level party flawless victory the Tarrasque because the cleric simply stood back and tapped in Heal spells every round and let the rest of the party beat the thing to death.

And, note, no, the T can't just "go get the caster", since he completely lacks any ranged offense.

To me, this pretty much highlights the disparity. The ultimate fighter, which is what the Tarrasque is, can't begin to compete with a Red Dragon.
 

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