Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

True enough. But I don't see how a fairly obscure means of analyzing the system (comparing the usefulness of level advancement in different classes) is relevant with players who display that type of responsible behavior. If their desire is to have an enjoyable game for all, they'll steer clear of the charop boards and just create sensible characters that don't exploit infinite wish tricks, and everyone will be happy.
Well, like I mentioned in a thread last week, there's a lot of goals when you roleplay, and my desire to fulfill any one of them is not infinite compared to the other priorities. I'm happy to be a responsible gamer who takes initiative in creating stories and opportunities for the DM to challenge us. Driving the story is great fun. But that doesn't mean I don't ALSO enjoy building a competent, capable character. In an ideal world, I can play my character as optimally as possible without worrying that I have to restrain myself to respect the story.

For example, my character in my Dresden Files game could pretty reliably generate fire blasts that inflicted 7 stress, which is enough to severely injure any enemy that isn't way out of my league, power-wise. But I can only do that maybe twice before the mental stress I generate gives me serious consequences. And anything more than a mild consequence doesn't get resolved until at least a session has passed.
 

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Well, like I mentioned in a thread last week, there's a lot of goals when you roleplay, and my desire to fulfill any one of them is not infinite compared to the other priorities. I'm happy to be a responsible gamer who takes initiative in creating stories and opportunities for the DM to challenge us. Driving the story is great fun. But that doesn't mean I don't ALSO enjoy building a competent, capable character. In an ideal world, I can play my character as optimally as possible without worrying that I have to restrain myself to respect the story.

For example, my character in my Dresden Files game could pretty reliably generate fire blasts that inflicted 7 stress, which is enough to severely injure any enemy that isn't way out of my league, power-wise. But I can only do that maybe twice before the mental stress I generate gives me serious consequences. And anything more than a mild consequence doesn't get resolved until at least a session has passed.

The DFRPG is an interesting example as I have heard that mages are in fact one of if not the most powerful and versatile character types in the game, I haven't played DFRPG yet, though I do own it... how accurate would you say that characterization of mages in the game is?
 

I don't see how a fairly obscure means of analyzing the system (comparing the usefulness of level advancement in different classes) is relevant with players who display that type of responsible behavior. If their desire is to have an enjoyable game for all, they'll steer clear of the charop boards and just create sensible characters that don't exploit infinite wish tricks, and everyone will be happy.
This statement, taken in its totality, is not true in my experience, because (again in my exerience) charop is a red herring.

The use of Charm Person to deal with the chamberlain has nothing to do with charop, for instance. That is just the player of an enchanter PC using his/her resources to play his/her PC in accordance with a completely uncontentious conception of what it is that enchanters do (namely, enchant). Yet we have already seen in this thread that that is an action which gives rise to balance concerns, countering responses from the GM, etc.

For me and the players I play with, an enjoyable game begins from the premise that every player is free to play his or her PC (i) hard, and (ii) in accordance with that player's conception of that PC. The fighter/caster issue arises because when the players of casters do this using the traditional D&D suite of spells they put serious pressure on the viability of this style of game. (Evokers less so - they're essentially a form of high-impact archer - but charmers, diviners and summoners are all more serious culprits; and even an evoker can have a potentially destabiising series of utility effects.)

The sorts of spells I have in mind incude detection spells (that create privileged access to backstory), various forms of scouting/mobility (invis, fly etc) which create both privileged access to backstory and also opportunities for scene avoidance, charming (which allows reframing a scene from an encounter with a hostile entity to an encounter with a friendly entity), summoning (which allows breaking the action economy) and all the other usual culprits.

If the GM pulls out "special measures" - like the king's own diviners to protect the chamberlain from Charm spells, or the replacement lizardman guard to get in the way of Magic Jar - then from the players' point of view, in my style of play, this is a type of ad hoc punishment for good play (@Manbearcat's Calvinball). If the player holds back him-/herself, then s/he is no longer going all out to bring his/her PC into contact with the fiction. S/he's voluntarily forfeiting the ability to deploy resources. For me, at least, this is insipid, and turns the player into a type of co-GM and the character into some sort of half-way thing between PC and NPC. That has little attraction for me.

What I prefer is to tackle the issue of mechanical effectiveness, especially in those dimensions I emphasised, at the point of character build (eg redesign Charm so it is essentially a bonus to engage in Dipolmacy; redesign Invis so it interfaces more obviously with the Stealth rules; etc); and also to develop action resolution mechanics which can absorb and cope with, rather than crack under the pressure of, these sorts of abilities. In particular, this means shifting from ad hoc obstacles to the regulated and rationed introduction of obstacles in response to player checks. (This is Manbearcat's point about the difference between closed, genre-driven scene/conflict resolution, compared to open-ended task resolution.)
 

The DFRPG is an interesting example as I have heard that mages are in fact one of if not the most powerful and versatile character types in the game, I haven't played DFRPG yet, though I do own it... how accurate would you say that characterization of mages in the game is?
Yea, any character with Thaumaturgy (or one of its specializations) and time can be crazy powerful. In general, you want the pace of a Dresden Files to be like the novels, a lot of action in a short period of time, than lots of downtime in between arcs to let the characters recharge. That makes Thaumaturgy more than flexible and powerful enough to be worthwhile, without dominating the game. The Seven Laws of Magic and the Wardens also contribute to making Wizardry not the best choice for every situation. (Basically, the seven laws prohibit murder of mortals via magic, no mind affecting magic, and no time travel, among several other things.)
 

The sorts of spells I have in mind incude detection spells (that create privileged access to backstory), various forms of scouting/mobility (invis, fly etc) which create both privileged access to backstory and also opportunities for scene avoidance, charming (which allows reframing a scene from an encounter with a hostile entity to an encounter with a friendly entity), summoning (which allows breaking the action economy) and all the other usual culprits.
I don't know about culprits. All of those spells, and spells in general, will of course do things better than simple applications of nonmagical skill. That's the whole paradigm; in exchange for being weak and frail, casters get to be special on occasion.

If the GM pulls out "special measures" - like the king's own diviners to protect the chamberlain from Charm spells, or the replacement lizardman guard to get in the way of Magic Jar - then from the players' point of view, in my style of play, this is a type of ad hoc punishment for good play (@Manbearcat's Calvinball).
In other words, the players are apparently allowed to go "hard" and play their characters in a way that makes sense to them...but the DM isn't? Not that I've never seen this attitude before, but it becomes ludicrous pretty quickly. I see no reason why the DM can't use the rules.

If the player holds back him-/herself, then s/he is no longer going all out to bring his/her PC into contact with the fiction. S/he's voluntarily forfeiting the ability to deploy resources. For me, at least, this is insipid, and turns the player into a type of co-GM and the character into some sort of half-way thing between PC and NPC. That has little attraction for me.
That's a very narrow way of looking at it. More rationally, caster players tend to hold back for non-metagame reasons; they're afraid of what will happen to them if they cast a spell now and get caught with their pants down later. Risk aversion is a very effective balancing tool.

What I prefer is to tackle the issue of mechanical effectiveness, especially in those dimensions I emphasised, at the point of character build (eg redesign Charm so it is essentially a bonus to engage in Dipolmacy; redesign Invis so it interfaces more obviously with the Stealth rules; etc); and also to develop action resolution mechanics which can absorb and cope with, rather than crack under the pressure of, these sorts of abilities.
I can see some value in that; if for other reasons. I'm not a big fan of sequestering things like insanity and exhaustion under spell descriptions.

In particular, this means shifting from ad hoc obstacles to the regulated and rationed introduction of obstacles in response to player checks. (This is Manbearcat's point about the difference between closed, genre-driven scene/conflict resolution, compared to open-ended task resolution.)
I'm firmly against being rationed. I have enough on my plate without having to worry about that, and it's basically a metagame consideration.
 

If the GM pulls out "special measures" - like the king's own diviners to protect the chamberlain from Charm spells, or the replacement lizardman guard to get in the way of Magic Jar - then from the players' point of view, in my style of play, this is a type of ad hoc punishment for good play (@Manbearcat's Calvinball). If the player holds back him-/herself, then s/he is no longer going all out to bring his/her PC into contact with the fiction. S/he's voluntarily forfeiting the ability to deploy resources. For me, at least, this is insipid, and turns the player into a type of co-GM and the character into some sort of half-way thing between PC and NPC. That has little attraction for me.

I still think you are misframing the argument and mischaracterizing those who do not see wizards as a problem. Charm Person is a perfectly fine spell, nothing wrong with it, and it should work as written. I have no balance worries about it.

There is a conflation of two different arguments here: playstyle and mechanics. While the arguments feed into each other, they are separate arguments. In part, the playstyle of some of us helps keep the casters in line by enforcing in-game consequences for failed actions. If the wizard is caught charming the chamberlain there should also be consequences. This is not punishing the player. Nor are these special measures meant to make the spell "not work." It is simply having the game world work in the way the GM thinks it should work. This is a play style issue granted, but once that is granted, why villify the players and GMs who like that sort of play-style. Its not holding back wizards and more than having the castle guards show up to arrest the fighter for murdering the innkeeper is "holding back" the fighter. But all of this is playstyle related, it has nothing to do with whether the spell would work or not as written

I contend that most of the spells as written, invisibility, charm, magic jar, are not, imo, game-breaking. They work just fine and create some interesting solutions to problems. They do not, of themselves, unbalance game play, nor do they make other classes obsolete. Groups in which this happen, have, imo, a different problem than the mechanics, or they are failing, in some way, to fully apply the mechanics. This does not mean there cannot be improvements to the spells (cf. Polymorph and Pathfinder), but on the whole they work pretty well. I have no problem, in my game, with wizards pushing hard to fulfill their characters. Let them do so. The game will function and be fun if I do my job right as a GM.

Now, if the mechanics do not work up to specs for your preferred play-style, I sympathize with you, but this proves nothing about the viability of the mechanics themselves to function as needed for the game they were designed for. I am not sure what your goal is at this point. You acknowledge 3.5 and PF does not seem to work for you and you do not like the basic playstyle the game was meant for. I am sorry for that. But it works for the rest of us, so why keep insisting that we agree the game is broken or that the spells don't work? Find the game that works best for you, or design it. Explore your game-theory to your heart's content, but stop trying to insist that others agree that your view of the spells must be the correct view.

And may I just add that to keep accusing others of playing "Calvinball," simply because you would do it differently, is rather meanspirited on your part, slightly slanderous, its getting old, and its especially grating because it fails to acknowledge that nobody is actually arguing the DM should just change the rules to suit his own tyrannical whimsy or preset story-line.
 

In other words, the players are apparently allowed to go "hard" and play their characters in a way that makes sense to them...but the DM isn't? Not that I've never seen this attitude before, but it becomes ludicrous pretty quickly. I see no reason why the DM can't use the rules.
Well, the DM doesn't have characters, does he? He has NPCs he uses, but advancement of his NPCs isn't a goal of the DM that I'm aware of. (Especially since the DM has carte blanche to make NPCs in pretty much every RPG that I know.) The closest I'm aware of is that you and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] and [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION], among many others, espouse an "antagonist-driven" model where the DM invests his NPCs with agency, much as the players have agency with their PCs, and the DM runs their agendas and actions "behind-the-scenes" until the PCs cross paths with them.
 

Well, the DM doesn't have characters, does he? He has NPCs he uses, but advancement of his NPCs isn't a goal of the DM that I'm aware of. (Especially since the DM has carte blanche to make NPCs in pretty much every RPG that I know.) The closest I'm aware of is that you and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] and [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION], among many others, espouse an "antagonist-driven" model where the DM invests his NPCs with agency, much as the players have agency with their PCs, and the DM runs their agendas and actions "behind-the-scenes" until the PCs cross paths with them.

I've read more than one DnD book describe NPC's as the DM's characters, so I am not sure why anyone would think it was otherwise in a traditional D&D game. It is pretty normal for DMs to invest the NPCs, especially named NPCs, with full agency.

However, doing so does not of itself make the DM an antagonist of the player nor does doing so mean the DM now has as his goal the advancement of the NPCs.

I would wager that in the majority of pre 4e games (I have learned not to make guesses about 4e games) this is the way it was.
 

Assuming you manage to contain the creature and keep it from trying to kill you, and then assuming you win your charisma check, and then assuming you mount the nightmare and it obeys you, I am left with this question: how do you get back out of the vault? :)
Simple: you cast Dimension Door.
 

I contend that most of the spells as written, invisibility, charm, magic jar, are not, imo, game-breaking.
No one is contending that this is not your opinion.

Now, if the mechanics do not work up to specs for your preferred play-style, I sympathize with you, but this proves nothing about the viability of the mechanics themselves to function as needed for the game they were designed for.
I'm reasonably sure "what the game was designed for" is one of the points of contention that has been raised and not yet reached anything like a consensus.

I am not sure what your goal is at this point. You acknowledge 3.5 and PF does not seem to work for you and you do not like the basic playstyle the game was meant for. I am sorry for that. But it works for the rest of us, so why keep insisting that we agree the game is broken or that the spells don't work? Find the game that works best for you, or design it. Explore your game-theory to your heart's content, but stop trying to insist that others agree that your view of the spells must be the correct view.
Nothing in [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s quote above is an insistence that everyone agree with him. I see at least three instances of "in my style of play", "for me, at least", and "has little attraction for me". How much more consolation do you need that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] doesn't think you're a bad person because of your elfgame style?

And may I just add that to keep accusing others of playing "Calvinball," simply because you would do it differently, is rather meanspirited on your part, slightly slanderous, its getting old, and its especially grating because it fails to acknowledge that nobody is actually arguing the DM should just change the rules to suit his own tyrannical whimsy or preset story-line.
Saying that raising the challenge due to successful and strategic play remind one of Calvinball seems more metaphorical to me. I don't find it any more meanspirited than saying that fighter dailies ruin roleplaying because immersion. It's simply pointing out that one group might not favor one of the goals of roleplaying to the extent that another group does.
 

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