Sexism in Table-Top Gaming: My Thoughts On It, and What We Can Do About It

mythago

Hero
I don't think anybody really disagrees with the idea that a rules system or a GM may set limits on what the players or characters can do, and that setting limits is not automatically a problem. The contrary position is by definition somewhat absurd, really. So if you are uninterested in talking about whether specific applications of arbitrary limits make sense, that's your prerogative, but may we take "it is not inherently bad for rules systems or GMs to make arbitrary decisions about what's in and what's out" as a given, absent somebody actually arguing that GMs running a grimdark Joe Abercrombie-style D&D setting are morally obliged to allow a pun-slinging rogue PCstraight out of Myth Adventures?

In regards to the former question ("why do they choose those") I actually don't find it all that interesting - how do you conclusively determine what someone else's motivations are? Even if they tell you, how do you know they're being honest?

In regards to the latter question, if the person(s) setting the limitations doesn't follow them, then that does smack of hypocrisy...but I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt for at least a little while, in that maybe they have a reason for why they're violating their own rule. Of course, that degree of trust is presumed that the reason will (sooner, rather than later) be made clear.

...so I can't assume they are being honest, but nonetheless there is an "atmosphere of trust" so I should just quietly assume there's some good reason I'm not being told, and I have to assume rather than ask because if I asked about it they might lie? I'm genuinely not following this.

What is so awful about politely asking a GM, or a rules designer if you're in that context, why they're doing X when X doesn't seem to fit the limitations they've placed on the game? Because they might lie? Sure, or they might also say "Huh, you know, I hadn't thought of it that way." Or "I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but I promise you there are in-game reasons that you'll find out later." Or "HOW DAR U CHALLENGE MY AUTHORITAY" (which latter merits an entirely different reaction, obviously, but better to find out sooner rather than later if one's GM is a dipstick).
 

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mythago

Hero
I would greatly appreciate if people would stop mixing up sexual harassment and sexism. This, I find extremely offensive towards men. Some posters here have written six or seven letter-sized pages of text on male sexism; what about discussing female double standards, while we're at it?

For example, the fantasies expressed in the worldwide bestseller Shades of Grey dwarf any display of sexual encounters I have ever witnessed in any game. Yet, it's socially acceptable, for whatever reason. But, no, we sexist pigs, having our dungeon-looting party of dwarves and hobbits celebrate in the Waterdeep whorehouse, that is so GROSS!


1) There is a popular mainstream bestselling "erotic romance" series which involves a lot of explicit male dominant/female submissive sex scenes.

2) Therefore, any female player who is bothered by the male players wanting their PCs to go en masse to a whorehouse is engaging in a sexist double standard and is unfairly criticizing "virile" male behavior.

It's like one of those problems in kids' magazines where you have to go from STOP to RENT with only six changes of letters; the intervening logical process between #1 and #2 there is a mystery.

Sexism is an issue in gaming, though it has been getting better over the years.

Oh gosh yes. Game designers have started to figure out that, hey, she-gamers spend money too. The guy who played with the original D&D boxed set as a teenager grew up and had daughters. The surrounding culture has matured, too. There's still a lot of room for improvement, though. (And not just on the issue of gender, either.)
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I don't think anybody really disagrees with the idea that a rules system or a GM may set limits on what the players or characters can do, and that setting limits is not automatically a problem. The contrary position is by definition somewhat absurd, really.

I agree that it's an absurd presumption to think that the GM shouldn't set limits on what the PCs can do - but I've encountered people who seem to presume just that. Hence why I was speaking out against that when the specter of that presumption was raised here; I've encountered that attitude before, and I wanted to voice my disagreement with it. That's the sum total of what I was speaking to here.

So if you are uninterested in talking about whether specific applications of arbitrary limits make sense, that's your prerogative, but may we take "it is not inherently bad for rules systems or GMs to make arbitrary decisions about what's in and what's out" as a given, absent somebody actually arguing that GMs running a grimdark Joe Abercrombie-style D&D setting are morally obliged to allow a pun-slinging rogue PCstraight out of Myth Adventures?

You may take it as a given if you wish, but as I said before, I've encountered that degree of player entitlement more than once before. You may think that arguing against such a stance is little more than tilting at windmills, but I've seen that attitude become a real part of some gamers' default assumptions towards how the game should be run (usually along the lines of "the players should tell the GM what they want to play beforehand, and the GM should then design the campaign around that, rather than the GM announcing what he's going to run and telling the players to make characters that conform to that regardless of their wishes").

...so I can't assume they are being honest, but nonetheless there is an "atmosphere of trust" so I should just quietly assume there's some good reason I'm not being told, and I have to assume rather than ask because if I asked about it they might lie? I'm genuinely not following this.

Your confusion is understandable, since you're conflating two separate points I raised.

The first point is that the issue of asking what the motivation is for the GM imposing certain limitations to begin with. I feel that's a useless question to ask, because you can't ever know what someone else's motivation is. If you think that the GM is imposing certain limits because it's a reflection of a politically incorrect ideology that they hold, how do you ascertain that? Do you ask them point blank if they're imposing (to use the example raised in this thread) limits on Strength scores for female PCs because they hate women? If so, how do you know that their answer (which we can presume is a negative) is honest, and not an attempt to avoid admitting to something they know you won't find acceptable?

In other words, I'm saying that making presumptions about a person's attitudes and beliefs based on what they do or do not allow in their campaign is a foolish thing to do.

The second point is the issue of the GM imposing limits, and then breaking them. This is different because it's not a question of the GM's attitudes and beliefs, but of the internal logic and consistency in the game world. If no dwarves can be wizards, for example, and then the GM introduces a dwarven wizard NPC, that's a question of finding out why - in the context of the game world - that's possible. In that case, I'm saying that there is (or should be) enough trust in the GM to showcase how this can be reconciled with the limitations on the game world while still maintaining internal logic and consistency (which tends to be some sort of exception-based design).

To summarize, you can't ever truly know someone's motivations, but you can know if their actions remain consistent within the boundaries they set. Does that ease your confusion?

What is so awful about politely asking a GM, or a rules designer if you're in that context, why they're doing X when X doesn't seem to fit the limitations they've placed on the game? Because they might lie? Sure, or they might also say "Huh, you know, I hadn't thought of it that way." Or "I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but I promise you there are in-game reasons that you'll find out later." Or "HOW DAR U CHALLENGE MY AUTHORITAY" (which latter merits an entirely different reaction, obviously, but better to find out sooner rather than later if one's GM is a dipstick).

Again, you're confusing the two issues. You can ask someone how things work, and you can ask them why did they do this - the difference is that the former question can be answered objectively, whereas the latter cannot be.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
I would greatly appreciate if people would stop mixing up sexual harassment and sexism. This, I find extremely offensive towards men. Some posters here have written six or seven letter-sized pages of text on male sexism; what about discussing female double standards, while we're at it?

For example, the fantasies expressed in the worldwide bestseller Shades of Grey dwarf any display of sexual encounters I have ever witnessed in any game. Yet, it's socially acceptable, for whatever reason. But, no, we sexist pigs, having our dungeon-looting party of dwarves and hobbits celebrate in the Waterdeep whorehouse, that is so GROSS!

You really need to reread what has been said here. Not one poster has said anything about sexual fantasies. Having your fictional character visit a whore house is not the same thing as making crude sexual innuendo comments to a female player at the table or at a con. Sexism is not looking at a sexy dressed cosplayer and thinking privately how you would like to have sex with her.
 

mythago

Hero
The first point is that the issue of asking what the motivation is for the GM imposing certain limitations to begin with. I feel that's a useless question to ask, because you can't ever know what someone else's motivation is. If you think that the GM is imposing certain limits because it's a reflection of a politically incorrect ideology that they hold, how do you ascertain that? Do you ask them point blank if they're imposing (to use the example raised in this thread) limits on Strength scores for female PCs because they hate women? If so, how do you know that their answer (which we can presume is a negative) is honest, and not an attempt to avoid admitting to something they know you won't find acceptable?

The irony of "politically correct ideology" as a phrase is that it is, itself a politically-correct euphemism, and ultimately a self-serving one, meant to turn that frown upside down and turn what we might, less-euphemistically, characterize as anything ranging from unconscious short-sightedness to outright bigotry as a kind of brave, individualistic rebellion against rigid and punitive groupthink. Can we avoid this, please? We're grownups and don't need euphemisms.

Your argument is an odd one, as it presupposes that because we cannot actually read minds, communication is useless; further, that the only possible way to engage in a dialogue about contradictory rules is confrontational and accusatory. Instead of "Hey, Steph, why do you hate women?" one could just as easily ask "Why have a strength cap for females because of 'real world' human limitations when we don't apply those 'real world' limitations to, say, falling damage or fireballs?" or even just "Why is there a strength cap?"

Since we're talking about communication between people who get along well enough to game together, again, this is a dialogue, not a trial. Perhaps Stephanie will realize that, in the context of her game, it doesn't make sense to insist on strict real-world limitations on upper-body strength while handwaving similar limitations on how human skin reacts to fire. Perhaps instead she'll explain that there is a good in-game reason that would be spoilers to explain right now (such as the curse of an evil god on all womankind, and the players will eventually defeat this evil god).

I mean, let's take this out of the issue of gender for a moment, and assume that Stephanie the GM's boyfriend joins the game as a regular player. STGMB regularly gets treasure, positive NPC interactions and cutscenes that the rest of the group doesn't and hasn't gotten. Can I read Stephanie's mind? Of course not. Might there be good reasons for her actions? Of course. But I doubt anybody would advise me to STFU and hope that someday the reasons would become clear; I rather suspect that most, if not all, of the advice I would get here (other than "leave the game") would be to talk to her, to express my concerns in a constructive manner (because "Stephanie, stop letting your bedwarmer hog all the game time" is going to get us nowhere) and listen to what she says. It may be that Stephanie had no idea she was actually giving Bob special treatment! Or perhaps Bob has been doing particularly smart things with his character that I didn't notice, and Stephanie will point this out to me. Or perhaps there is a good in-game reason for all this that she can either explain, or tell me I will discover in the next few games, and asks me to trust her on this. (Or perhaps the response is angry denial and personal attacks, or weird evasiveness. That kind of response, in and of itself, is an answer.)


In other words, I'm saying that making presumptions about a person's attitudes and beliefs based on what they do or do not allow in their campaign is a foolish thing to do.

Yes, that would be the point of engaging in dialogue - so one does not make presumptions. "I'm sure they mean well and it'll all be revealed in the fullness of time", btw, which you advocate as an appropriate position to take when a GM or a rules system appears to be in contradiction, it itself a presumption about a person's attitudes and beliefs.

The second point is the issue of the GM imposing limits, and then breaking them. This is different because it's not a question of the GM's attitudes and beliefs, but of the internal logic and consistency in the game world. If no dwarves can be wizards, for example, and then the GM introduces a dwarven wizard NPC, that's a question of finding out why - in the context of the game world - that's possible. In that case, I'm saying that there is (or should be) enough trust in the GM to showcase how this can be reconciled with the limitations on the game world while still maintaining internal logic and consistency (which tends to be some sort of exception-based design).

If there is trust in the GM, shouldn't there be enough trust to be confident that one can ask "Wait, I thought the rule was X but this thing seems to violate rule X?" This is especially so when problem is less an exception to a particular rule (dwarves can't be wizards, women have a strength cap, but *this* NPC is unusual for specific reasons), but is an inconsistency in the underlying logic of the game. If a GM says that the milieu is going to adhere strictly to the social mores of Tokugawa-era Japan, then the players ought to be surprised if samurai are cheerfully running around shooting handguns without anyone batting an eye about it. That would be different from a game in which a particular samurai pulls a handgun on the players. ("Wait, I thought this was forbidden? Oh wait, Evil Lord Hoshio probably doesn't give a rip about the code of honor. Okay then.")


To summarize, you can't ever truly know someone's motivations, but you can know if their actions remain consistent within the boundaries they set. Does that ease your confusion?


Again, you're confusing the two issues. You can ask someone how things work, and you can ask them why did they do this - the difference is that the former question can be answered objectively, whereas the latter cannot be.

Certainly the latter can be answered objectively; one may disagree with the reasoning, but I don't see why it is impossible to answer objectively.
 

1) There is a popular mainstream bestselling "erotic romance" series which involves a lot of explicit male dominant/female submissive sex scenes.

2) Therefore, any female player who is bothered by the male players wanting their PCs to go en masse to a whorehouse is engaging in a sexist double standard and is unfairly criticizing "virile" male behavior.

It's like one of those problems in kids' magazines where you have to go from STOP to RENT with only six changes of letters; the intervening logical process between #1 and #2 there is a mystery.

I congratulate you to that catchphrase! You should go fight the swordmaster.

Let me slowly lead you to the path of enlightenment, though:
Would the example given in 2) be less exist, if there was no female player on the gaming table?
Because I think that's where you take away the wrong conclusion.

You really need to reread what has been said here. Not one poster has said anything about sexual fantasies. Having your fictional character visit a whore house is not the same thing as making crude sexual innuendo comments to a female player at the table or at a con. Sexism is not looking at a sexy dressed cosplayer and thinking privately how you would like to have sex with her.

Look, we agree, it's just semantics. As in, in the same post that you complained about con stalkers, you immediately afterwards mentioned DMs presenting topics in their games that possibly might - as in, have the potential chance to - offend PTSD victims. That's two very different things, and that's were I took offense.
 

mythago

Hero
I congratulate you to that catchphrase! You should go fight the swordmaster.

Let me slowly lead you to the path of enlightenment, though:
Would the example given in 2) be less exist, if there was no female player on the gaming table?
Because I think that's where you take away the wrong conclusion.

But we haven't even gotten to the question of whether 'the dwarves and hobbits go to the whorehouse' is or is not sexist (and you seem to be assuming that I do, in fact, think it is, which I have not said). You argued that because Shades of Grey is a novel written by a woman and with a female targeted audience contains very explicit sex scenes, any female player who is bothered by 'the dwarves and hobbits go to the whorehouse' is engaging in a double standard. I don't see how you get from the first sentence to the second, and you still haven't explained it.
 


Elf Witch

First Post
I congratulate you to that catchphrase! You should go fight the swordmaster.

Let me slowly lead you to the path of enlightenment, though:
Would the example given in 2) be less exist, if there was no female player on the gaming table?
Because I think that's where you take away the wrong conclusion.



Look, we agree, it's just semantics. As in, in the same post that you complained about con stalkers, you immediately afterwards mentioned DMs presenting topics in their games that possibly might - as in, have the potential chance to - offend PTSD victims. That's two very different things, and that's were I took offense.

I still don't understand what you are taking offense to? I am serious I don't understand your point at al.

They are both subjects often brought up when discussing woman in gaming or woman in any fandom for that matter.

What you described as characters going off to a whorehouse is not the same thing as rape in a game. Why would that even be an issue unless you are playing with underage children?
 


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