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D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

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The other difference I see is that 4e has a very precise target line, whereas OD&D and basic D&D don't specify "cresature" as the target that the spell could affect.

EDIT: It is exactly this precise listing of valid targets in 4e which sets it apart... especially since "object" was a valid target and not included in numerous powers thus implying by exclusion that an object was not a valid target for those powers.

Because I happen to have Expert edition open to the page right now...It specifies "each creature within the sphere of fire". There is no hint that anything other than a creature can be damaged by it - though it was obvious to players of that edition.
 

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I wonder if its such a big deal because 3e magic users are not used to having to ask a gm for things. So naturally they take it as proof that they cannot do things.

Could be.

I know for 1e and TSR-editions, regardless of what was written in the book, there was a culture of understanding that the DM had a lot more say over what did or did not happen in the world, down to details like this. That changed somewhat in 3e. I think it still was changed for 4e as well.
 

I used 3e because it's arguably the largest. The idea still stands though. 4e with its standardized power block would have had been a lot more bloated with lines on what each and every power could or couldn't do. So they fixed it with the line about creature targets can also be objects.

Yeah but the whole is that it's been in the game much more than citing only 3e would indidcate, and the fact that it has been in 1e, 2e and 3.x... would seem to imply that your general statement about 3.x magic users would also apply to 1e and 2e magic users as well... so do you also believe that 1e and 2e magic users weren't used to asking their DM for things (whatever that means)?

As to your other point... Yes they did fix it... eventually. Like I said some posters (@pemerton, [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION], etc.) are arguing that the rules of 4e from the beginning allowed this, but my contention is that they didn't, and that it was actual errata, added later, that fixed it... I don't think anyone is claiming they didn't get around to fixing it later, but some of us have a problem with the revisionist history being presented that claims the game always allowed this.
 

Because I happen to have Expert edition open to the page right now...It specifies "each creature within the sphere of fire". There is no hint that anything other than a creature can be damaged by it - though it was obvious to players of that edition.

Does it have a specific "Target" line? 4e unlike most editions has a very specific format that lists it's valid targets for a spell or target.

Also, please let's not start this discussion with you again presuming to speak for a large number of individuals you have no insight into (speaking for all players of a certain edition)... I would be able take your arguments more seriously if you did'nt do that.

EDIT: In other words, OD&D and Basic are silent on what the spell affects outside of creatures... 4e on the other hand is very specific about what is and isn't a valid target... and until the eratta was released, object was a specific type of target that wasn't listed as a valid target for many spells and powers.
 
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The fact of the matter is, it hasn't almost always been DM's call. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions make up the most of D&D's life and in all three additions it was just a part of the spell, there was no DM intervention.

4th edition threw in a reference about DM's being allowed to set objects on fire if they wanted so it wasn't "assumed" in 4th edition that spells like Fireball destroyed objects.

"DM's call" is not considered a rule, it is considered an option that the DM chooses if he/she so wishes.
 

Fireball (Evocation)
Level: 3 Components: V, S
Range: 10" + I"/level
Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: !4
Area of Effect: 2"radius sphere
Explanation/Description: A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which
detonates with a low roar, and delivers damage proportionate to the level
of the magic-user who cast it, i.e. 1 six-sided die (d6) for each level of
experience of the spell caster. Exception: Magic fireball wands deliver 6
die fireballs (6d6), magic staves with this capability deliver 8 die fireballs,
and scroll spells of this type deliver a fireball of from 5 to 10 dice (d6 + 4)
of damage. The burst of the fireball does not expend a considerable
amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of
the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal
spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the fireball is a total
volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]. Besides causing damage
to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst
radius, and the heat of the fireball will melt soft metals such as gold,
copper, silver, etc. Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to
determine if they are affected. Items with a creature which makes its
saving throw are considered as unaffected.
The magic-u,ser points his or
her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball
is to borst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts
upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into
the fireball If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point
damage frqm the blast. Those who make saving throws manage to dodge,
fall flat or roll aside, taking '/1 the full hit point damage - each and every
one within the blast area. The material component of this spell is a tiny
ball composed of bat guano and sulphur.

Holy 1st edition Batman! Looks like objects are effected here as well.

Shall we continue?

AD&D Lightning Bolt (save for half spell) affects items as well

lightning Bolt (Evocation)
Level: 3
Range: 4" + 1"Aevel
Duration: lnstontaneous
Area of Effect: Special
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3 segments
Saving Throw: M
Explanation/Description: Upon casting this spell, the magic user releases a
powerful stroke of electrical energy which causes damage equal to 1 sixsided
die (d6) for each level of experience of the spell caster to creatures
within its area of effect, or 50% of such damage to such creatures which
successfully save versus the attack form. The range of the bolt is the
location of the commencement of the stroke, i.e. if shot to 6", the bolt
would extend from this point to n inches further distance. The lightning
bolt will set fire to combustibles, sunder wooden doors, splinter up to 1'
thickness of stone, and melt metals with a low melting point (lead, gold,
copper, silver, bronze). Saving throws must be made for objects which
withstand the full force of a stroke (cf. fireball).
The area of the lightning
bolt's effect is determined by the spell caster, just as its distance is. The
stroke can be either a forking bolt 1" wide and 4" long, or a single bolt %"
wide and 8" long. If a 12th level magic-user cast the spell at its maximum
range, 16" in this case, the stroke would begin at 16" and flash outward
from there, as a forked bolt ending at 20" or a single one ending at 24". If
the full length of the stroke is not possible due to the interposition of CI nonconducting
barrier (such as a stone wall), the lightning bolt will double
and rebound towards its caster, its length being the normal total from
beginning to end of stroke, damage caused to interposing barriers
notwithstanding. Example: An 8' stroke is begun at a range of 4", but the
possible space in the desired direction is only 3%"; so the bolt begins at
the 3%" maximum, and it rebounds 8" in the direction of its creator. The
material components of the spell are a bit of fur and an amber, crystal or
glass rod.

Back in those days players cared about realism and wanted Lightning Bolts and Fireballs to act like Lightning Bolts and Fireballs. There weren't just attacks that take away HP. People who don't like realism and detail of course wanted those bolded parts removed from spell descriptions like they did in 4th edition.
 

The thing is, 4e did it differently. It had a universal power block, and also had (after errata) a universal catch all for targeting objects. After that, it did not need to individually put in all the instances where something may need to target objects.
 

What are you on about?

You do know you don't need the Rules Compendium to play the game nor do you need to go online and use the updates to play.

You can play the game with nothing but the PHB1 even. That said, your level of ignorance about the system is at a level that you either don't even know the PHB1 or you're willfully not acknowledging what it says.
 

The fact of the matter is, it hasn't almost always been DM's call. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions make up the most of D&D's life and in all three additions it was just a part of the spell, there was no DM intervention.

4th edition threw in a reference about DM's being allowed to set objects on fire if they wanted so it wasn't "assumed" in 4th edition that spells like Fireball destroyed objects.

Wait, you need an explicit rule to tell you that a giant ball of flame can set combustable items on fire?
 


Folks,

Don't make it personal. Address the logic of the post, not the person of the poster, please.

If your rules discussions are turning into personal challenges, it is time to stop.
 

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