D&D 5E What's Next for D&D's Campaign Settings? (And an idea/suggestion for WotC!)

[SkidAce]

A contrary viewpoint:

Leave my detail empty and unexplained/explored regions of Greyhawk alone.

I know I'm 20 years too late, but it was meant to be a framework. [/shakes fist]

 

[Mercurius]

That's all nice in theory, but there's a big problem: those names sell. That's why we keep seeing sequels, prequels, reboots, and rehashes (plus star vehicles for the likes of Pitt, Cruise, Tarantino, Spielberg...) That's why Disney just bought Lucasfilm, why we're getting a new trilogy of "Star Wars" films, and why we'll all go trooping off to see them in the cinema, even after the epic disappointment that was the prequel trilogy.

Yes, and it saddens me because it points not only to the creative limitations of the entertainment industry, but the simple fact that the people want the same old stuff rather than new and fresh ideas (or at least they want more of the same old, and are very conservative about the new). The good thing is that eventually the new does come out - there's always a breakthrough, a new vision.

I'm as excited to see Star Wars 7-9 as anyone else, and I think there's a precedent for "continuing the story." What I find artistically deplorable is more along the lines of the recent Star Trek movies, which lacked both originality and the "special spark" that the original cast had in spades and the Next Generation had at least a flavoring of. As far as I'm concerned, William Shatner is James Tiberius Kirk. Ricardo Montalban is Khan. Benedict Cumberbatch was actually a pretty good villain, but he wasn't Khan (to me).

Now I understand that Star Trek Into Darkness wasn't primarily marketed to 40-year old mild trekkies like myself, but a Gen Texters for who Wrath of Khan would seem outdated and boring, but why steal ideas from it? Why not come up with something new? And, for that matter, why not create a whole new cast of characters - please both old and new fans alike by starting a fresh vision, a few decades after the Next Generation, and have Picard show up and break a bottle of champagne on Enterprise F or G or whatever comes after the Next Generation? Why always recycle the old?

Now Bond is a different matter. Rebooting Bond makes sense rather than trying to go with the adventures of agent 008. Each actor creates their own unique, culturally relevant version. I like the fact that Daniel Craig's Bond is very diferrent from Connery's or Moore's. "Bond" is the archetype, just like "Star Trek" or "the Enterprise" - so there can be new versions, new takes. But James Tiberius Kirk? There can only be one, and that's William Shatner.

When it comes to settings, WotC could try out a new setting, and they might manage to catch lightning in a bottle and hit on something that becomes as big as the Forgotten Realms. But, much more likely, they'd get something as big as Spelljammer, or Birthright, or... something that does well enough for a while, but isn't really a huge seller long-term.

Or, they can put out a new version of FR, and be guaranteed big sales. Probably not as big as last time, and it probably won't be as well received as last time (well, okay... the time before last), but probably better than "the next Birthright" would do.

And given that it costs the same to do the one as to do the other, they choose the safe option.

(And, of course, that's why 4e was "Dungeons & Dragons", and not just some new fantasy RPG, and why 5e is going to be "Dungeons & Dragons". And 3e, for that matter.)

Yes, I agree with you. But that doesn't mean I have to like it!

It might be a risk/reward thing. Going with the Forgotten Realms is (relatively) safe. With the ornery gamer populace they're going to piss someone off, but at least they're going to sell X-amount of campaign setting books.

All that said, since my original post, and from reading the various viewpoints of others, I think WotC should take this approach:

1) Have no specific default setting in the core rulebooks, but draw from different settings. In other words, the default setting should be the Platonic "D&D World" that is the archetype for all other settings. They can still cite specifics from different settings--and foster the spirit of inclusivity that they're seemingly going for with 5e--which would add flavor, but I also like the idea of keeping it open. In other words, instead of offering only a list of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms gods, why not have a section in the Dungeon Master's Guide on how to build your own pantheon, and then give examples from different world mythologies and fantasy settings? Sort of like a mini Deities & Demigods?

2) Reboot the Forgotten Realms in a more classic Greenwoodian way. Of the classic D&D settings, FR seems the most popular and the most palatable to the widest number of people (With apologies to Greyhawk, which is good but marred by silly in-joke names like "The Grand Duchy of Geoff" and other Gygaxian anachronisms which are nostalgically pleasing to those over 35 or so, but maybe a bit off-putting to those who don't remember Tears for Fears or Close Encounters of the Third Kind). Anyhow, the key is to do it big, do it well. Look at the grey box and 3E hardcover and try to take a step up from those.

3) Follow up with one-offs of other classic settings - really nice box sets or hardcovers, or ideally both: A hardcover campaign setting and a box set mega-adventure to show "how its done" in said world. While you're at it, throw in that Nentir Vale Gazetteer or, better yet, a Nerath book.

4) Have some kind of column in Dragon like "World of the Month" that features the campaign world of different submissions. Perhaps at the end of each year, there's a compilation product, and maybe the world voted by readers as the favorite is awarded its own book.

I think the key point that I'm not willing to let go of is that while I'm not at all opposed to seeing glossy 5e treatments of classic settings, I really hope that WotC doesn't stop there. Both as a "setting junky" and as someone interested in creativity and imagination, I like to see fresh ideas - not just nostalgic reboots, again and again and again....

 

[interfactor]

Reboot Greyhawk. Undo the violence done to the setting after Gygax left and use the first boxed set as a starting point. Update the City of Greyhawk and the classic modules. And lastly and importantly, Castle Greyhawk. License everything from Gygax's widow and place Rob Kuntz or Jeff Talanian in charge of the project. This should be the default setting. I have all the old books and modules, but I would buy them again if they were done well for 5e.

Next in line I would like to see Dark Sun and Planescape. The creators of these settings are still around, bring them in to the development process.

SkidAce - If you die first, I've got dibs on your sword.

 

[Halivar]

Reboot Greyhawk. Undo the violence done to the setting after Gygax left and use the first boxed set as a starting point. Update the City of Greyhawk and the classic modules. And lastly and importantly, Castle Greyhawk. License everything from Gygax's widow and place Rob Kuntz or Jeff Talanian in charge of the project. This should be the default setting. I have all the old books and modules, but I would buy them again if they were done well for 5e.

1000% agree. That means I <3 this idea 10 times more than you. Also, would like to see this happen across the board! First Greyhawk, then Forgotten Realms.

As a side effect, this may help pique the interest of some OSR enthusiasts.

 

[DEFCON 1]

In terms of what would make the most useful product for players who would use them (and thus actually get purchased)... I believe they should take their cue from Nentir Vale and their Neverwinter campaign setting book. In both cases, you have two relatively small areas wherein a campaign can be focused, and in which you can detail and drop in plot ideas that can actually get used much easier.

The problem with "world books" is that these worlds are so spread out... any campaign that begins there will only use like 3% of the information written for the book. It's only if the campaign progresses to the point where the party starts going cross-country that any of that other stuff they've detailed in all these other kingdoms will ever get used.

But when you have just a small area your setting book details (a single duchy, an extremely large city and its environs), groups are much more likely to possibly journey across it, and thereby actually coming across all the stuff the writers have included in it. Plus... the smaller size of what you are detailing means you can go much further in depth in terms of specifics-- NPCs, set locations, monster locales, dungeon areas etc.

I know my game went ALL OVER the Nentir Vale in my game that I ran-- Fallcrest, Winterhaven, Thunderspire, Hammerfast, Harkenwold, the Trollhaunt, because they were all within several days of each other, and thus stuff that was going on in all those places had an impact on the party or their friends and family.

So give me a Furyondy campaign setting book within Greyhawk. Or an Abanasinia campaign setting book within Dragonlance, or a Thrane campaign setting book within Eberron to go along with my Neverwinter campaign setting book within the Forgotten Realms. Much more focused... much more specific... and (for WotC's financials) much more geared towards the total number of campaigns whose levels will remain in the greatest number and use (the 1-10 level range.)

And should any particular game outgrow one of these settings (and let's be honest... we're probably only talking like 10% of any campaigns that use these books), make sure the DMs know they can pick up the larger campaign "world books" off of dndclassics.com. So if a game outgrows its Furyondy boundries... then the DM can grab PDF copies of the 2E Grey Box gazeteers for a larger world-view. Because most DMs who would get to that point will probably feel confident enough to adapt a past edition's setting book to their own particular needs.

That's my thought at least.

 

[TwoSix]

I think if WotC wants to build up Next into a Paizo-like presence, it needs to run things like they do. Fewer but more substantial hardbacks. Adventure paths that can be subscribed too. Develop the world through the adventure paths, and slowly trickle new crunch in through them as well. And to do that, they should have one core world that's continually being added to.

And based on recognition of names like Drizz't, Neverwinter, Icewind Dale, Balder's Gate, Waterdeep, etc., the best world to do that with is Forgotten Realms.

 

[interfactor]

Mercurius,

Updating old campaign settings gives us common ground with newer players. I think it's pretty cool that generations of gamers have had trouble with the giant frogs in front of the moathouse in T1, regardless of which version of D&D they played. Sure you can update the modules to the current version yourself, but most won't and will miss out on part of the history that made D&D great. Think of Mario and Nintendo. Nintendo would be insane to abandon the Mario or Zelda or Metroid franchises.

One thing to keep in mind in this discussion, though, is that the fragmentation of D&Ds campaign settings was one of the reasons for TSR's failure. Paizo has taken this lesson to heart and publishes just one campaign setting, Golarion. That being said, Golarion is a mishmash of different settings, yet it seems to work.

interfactor

 

[interfactor]

I think if WotC wants to build up Next into a Paizo-like presence, it needs to run things like they do. Fewer but more substantial hardbacks. Adventure paths that can be subscribed too. Develop the world through the adventure paths, and slowly trickle new crunch in through them as well. And to do that, they should have one core world that's continually being added to.

And based on recognition of names like Drizz't, Neverwinter, Icewind Dale, Balder's Gate, Waterdeep, etc., the best world to do that with is Forgotten Realms.

I'm a Greyhawk man myself, but I can't help but agree with you.

 

[interfactor]

1000% agree. That means I <3 this idea 10 times more than you. Also, would like to see this happen across the board! First Greyhawk, then Forgotten Realms.

As a side effect, this may help pique the interest of some OSR enthusiasts.

You, sir, are my new best friend.

Shameless OSR enthusiast,

interfactor

 

[DMZ2112]

Reboot Greyhawk.

My initial reaction to this was to recoil in horror, but upon reflection D&D might be due a reboot.

But here's the thing: JUST ONE. And from this point forward, setting lore doesn't undergo devastating change every time the edition rolls over.

I thought the transition to D&D3 from AD&D2 was cute, but that was because at the time I was ill-read in my classics and unaware that the exact same thing had happened to Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms between AD&D1 and AD&D2. And then the same thing happened again between D&D3.5 and D&D4.

It's time to embrace continuity in the lore. If that takes one big reboot -- emphasis on the ONE -- I can accept that.

...And welcome to the boards, Interfactor. Or at least, welcome to not lurking.