D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[JRRNeiklot]

Why not? Consider the other things involved. The druid has weak armor and moderate weapons - most of which are relatively rare as magic items. His spells are dependent on very special material components or they become weaker. He starts up with a good bump in spells, sure. But his ability to do non-specialized healing is weak because his version of cure light wounds is 2nd level. Call lightning isn't much of a balance factor because of its limited applicability and long casting time. And a lot of his other spells are not particularly strong at those levels. He can hold animals, heat metal (also a fairly slow spell to major effect), and a variety of other divinatory or utilitarian effects. Basically, the druid excels most at curing disease and neutralizing poison at 3rd level and if that's unbalancing there's a serious problem with the definition of balance.

Yep. Leather armor and a spear or scimitar. A Wooden shield. Ac 7 for one attack, 8 for the rest. Multiple attribute dependancy. And a siege weapon that rarely ever comes into play. Druids are one of my favorite classes, and I can't ever remember casting Call Lightning in over 30 years of playing 1E. He get's cure light wounds at 2nd level as opposed to first, and doesn't get the encounter ending hold person that a cleric has at 3rd level. Calling the druid op - outside of dealing with animals - is laughable.

 

[Hussar]

OTOH, a half elven Druid/MU was a lot of fun.
[MENTION=36874]Giltonio_Santos[/MENTION] I believe you might want to peruse your 2e DMG again. The bonus xp for fighters only applied to monsters defeated in single combat.

 

[pemerton]

Why not? Consider the other things involved. The druid has weak armor and moderate weapons - most of which are relatively rare as magic items.

Stronger then the MU in armour, weapons and HD. Yet needing fewer XP per level and getting 3rd level spells at 3rd.

his ability to do non-specialized healing is weak because his version of cure light wounds is 2nd level. Call lightning isn't much of a balance factor because of its limited applicability and long casting time. And a lot of his other spells are not particularly strong at those levels. He can hold animals, heat metal (also a fairly slow spell to major effect), and a variety of other divinatory or utilitarian effects. Basically, the druid excels most at curing disease and neutralizing poison at 3rd level and if that's unbalancing there's a serious problem with the definition of balance.

The druid has a better version of Charm Person as a 2nd level spell.

And if Curing Disease and Neutralizing poison are actually not that strong, then why are they 3rd and 4th level spells for the cleric, requiring XP in the 10s of thousands? And what is the whole point of "spell levels" if they don't measure anything meaningful in power terms across classes. There are certainly parts of the game that treat the notion of a spell level as a discrete and meaningful thing (eg the scroll rules).

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

OTOH, a half elven Druid/MU was a lot of fun.

@Giltonio_Santos I believe you might want to peruse your 2e DMG again. The bonus xp for fighters only applied to monsters defeated in single combat.

Where does it say that? I can't find it.

Cheers,

 

[Remathilis]

OTOH, a half elven Druid/MU was a lot of fun.

@Giltonio_Santos I believe you might want to peruse your 2e DMG again. The bonus xp for fighters only applied to monsters defeated in single combat.

You're mixing up your awards. Table 33 has this:

Defeating a creature in a single combat XP value/creature

While Table 34 has this:

Warrior	Award
Per Hit Die of creature defeated	10 XP/level

The two are not related.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Why not? Consider the other things involved. The druid has weak armor and moderate weapons - most of which are relatively rare as magic items. His spells are dependent on very special material components or they become weaker. He starts up with a good bump in spells, sure. But his ability to do non-specialized healing is weak because his version of cure light wounds is 2nd level. Call lightning isn't much of a balance factor because of its limited applicability and long casting time. And a lot of his other spells are not particularly strong at those levels. He can hold animals, heat metal (also a fairly slow spell to major effect), and a variety of other divinatory or utilitarian effects. Basically, the druid excels most at curing disease and neutralizing poison at 3rd level and if that's unbalancing there's a serious problem with the definition of balance.

Indeed!

If I remember correctly, Call Lightning required a storm and couldn't be done indoors.

 

[Luce]

Indeed!

If I remember correctly, Call Lightning required a storm and couldn't be done indoors.

It takes 10 rounds (10 minutes) to cast the spell and then you get to call one bolt every 10 rounds. On the other hand, it has good range (1080 feet), 10 foot radius burst, and the druid can cast other spells while keeping this one going. The spell has good anti-siege application, but unless one is expecting waves of enemies or hour+ long battles under the open skies probably not so good for adventuring. IMO an useful spell, but with a conditional application and several restrictions.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

It takes 10 rounds (10 minutes) to cast the spell and then you get to call one bolt every 10 rounds. On the other hand, it has good range (1080 feet), 10 foot radius burst, and the druid can cast other spells while keeping this one going. The spell has good anti-siege application, but unless one is expecting waves of enemies or hour+ long battles under the open skies probably not so good for adventuring. IMO an useful spell, but with a conditional application and several restrictions.

Exactly!

If the very rare conditions were right, it was a fantastic spell.

 

[Hussar]

My favourite strategy with 1e and 2e druids was Shapechange (at 6th level, earlier if you started using Complete Druid in 2e) and change into a poisonous snake. AD&D poisonous snakes granted you a save or die attack. Not a bad thing at all.

I have to admit though, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone consider 1e druids to be weak. If they were on par with fighters, then why make them fairly rare with some pretty strong stat requirements? Wasn't that the point of stringent stat requirements? To limit classes which were clearly stronger?

 

[Guest 85555]

My favourite strategy with 1e and 2e druids was Shapechange (at 6th level, earlier if you started using Complete Druid in 2e) and change into a poisonous snake. AD&D poisonous snakes granted you a save or die attack. Not a bad thing at all.

I have to admit though, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone consider 1e druids to be weak. If they were on par with fighters, then why make them fairly rare with some pretty strong stat requirements? Wasn't that the point of stringent stat requirements? To limit classes which were clearly stronger?

In 2E, you get shape change at 7th level, which is when mages already have access to spells like polymorph other (which has similar effects), and other fourth level spells.