Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] : Thanks for the reply, as most of it is just a statement of your own personal preferences I don't see much point in discussing it but I will list a few points...

1. I am glad you can understand that some people might actually enjoy playing through the experience that mechanical alignment gives. It seems that for some reason regardless of the various reasons given some posters are focusing in on "PUNISHMENT" as the reason for wanting mechanical alignment and that isn't necessarily the case.

2. Thanks for clearing up your point about the paladin and fighter... though again as they are already at a pretty low tier... I personally don't see the weakening of the paladin as causing that much of a necessary adjustment in encounter balance... YMMV and apparently does.

3. I noticed that in order to mechanically back up the fictional positioning of your fallen paladin (which in my opinion implies much more than just being a traitor)... you had to house rule the character, now I find this a much more satisfying answer than "fictional positioning" (Since in essence you are just playing a paladin who can do whatever he wants and is not beholden to the archetype)... wouldn't this be just as viable in 3.x if you wanted to keep encounter balance equal? Just house rule a rebuild of the character or give them a number of feats equal to a fighter.
 

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Partially echoing @S'mon a few pages back (I realize after already typing it in)...

I'm not misrepresenting what Gygax said LG alignment is - he is the one who defines LG as a commitment to the greatest happiness of the greatest number (ie Benthamism).

Wouldn't that only be how the lawful good define the good part of lawful good?

1e DMG said:
They are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest.

And the substitution of "benefit" for "happiness" and the limiting of it to "decent, thinking" creatures seems to pull it a bit away from Benthamism. (Would the LG take "decent" to mean "not too far from LG" and "benefit" to include the rule of law?)

Similarly in the PhB, it isn't happiness they want to spread, but rather the benefits of a lawful society that values life and beauty:

1e PhB said:
While as strict in their prosecution of law and order [as the lawful evil], characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all

Do the other two good alignments come a little closer to "greatest happiness for the greatest number"? Neutral good has the "happiness and prosperity" instead of benefit, but still restricts it to "deserving creatures". And chaotic good seems to be the one that doesn't want to restrict the benefits. It speaks about freedom as "the one means by which each creature can achieve true satisfaction and happiness."

Would some of Bentham's other quotes flat out contradict the L part of LG?
"All punishment is mischief; all punishment in itself is evil."
"Submit not to any decree or other act of power, of the justice of which you are not yourself perfectly convinced. If a constable call upon you to serve in the militia, shoot the constable and not the enemy;"

Could a Benthamite order or deity ever punish it's paladins for following their own convictions?

--

That being said, it does seem like two LG countries chock full of priests with commune spells should have a hard time coming to blows.
 
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As I used it, "meaningful" is a synonym for "desired", along these lines: if I am going to play an honourable man in an RPG, my desires for the way the events of the game unfold should be just as likely to be realised as those of any other player.

So there should never be a situation where realizing your desires might be facilitated by dishonourable action?

In general I'm not a huge fan of unilateral GM rules changes, but there are conflict of interest issues here - the player has an interest in maximising the mechanical effectiveness of his/her PC - which are not present in the case of alignment. There is no mechanical benefit to being dishonourable, nor is there any mechanical penalty for being honourable.

You would like the Holy Avenger longsword. It would give you mechanical benefits. It is held by your superior, although if he were out of the picture, you would be the likely inheritor of the weapon in question, a relic of your order, as you would be the most likely to be chosen to succeed him. That fellow is currently in a bit of trouble with the Order. You have stumbled upon a clue that might lead to his exoneration. You can ignore the clue, or follow up on it.

Sweeping it under the carpet likely gets you a mechanical advantage in the form of the Sword and the increase in rank in your order. Doing the honourable thing - proving his innocence - does not. Mechanical advantage gained from dishonourable behaviour.

That's a lengthy scenario. A much easier one is that you have emerged from a secret door in the midst of battle. A great enemy has his back to you as he battles another opponent. Do you slip up behind him for a Flanking bonus, or call out "Face me, Blackguard" so he can position himself where he cannot be flanked? Do you let him fight honourably in single combat, or gang up on him like craven cowards? Lots of mechanical advantages to being dishonourable exist. I can also see a lot of Paladins compromising their honour for the greater good - better probability of bringing the Evil to defeat with less likelihood of harm to the allies of Good.

No one playing my game - certainly not the player of that PC, nor the PC him-/herself - regards Vecna as a moral authority. He is an opportunistic archlich who worked his way to godhood and now seeks to accrete further power. (The dwarf PC takes much the same view of the Raven Queen - though she was a dead sorcerer when she ascended to godhood, rather than an undead one - but that is obviously more contentious at the table.)

So is this only an issue when the Power doing the judging is acknowledged as Good?

Nothing is stopping him. He has the same PC build options, and the same item wish list options, as everyone else at the table.

He has all the same options? Where is the Familiar his class abilities grant him? Where are the benefits of his magical loot, the Eye of Vecna? They were taken from him, and in a manner someone above noted was outside the action resolution mechanics.

In choosing to play a Paladin, the player has chosen a character who must either live up to the ideals of his Exemplar or fall. That's the contract he, the player, made by choosing the class with those rules. That really doesn't seem that difficult a concept from where I sit.

What rule says the Invoker should lose his familiar if he angers one of his patrons? Is there one? Again, I'm not well versed with 4e.

Emphasis mine... this has been repeated by numerous posters (and even cited in passages from various editions) by the side that believes alignment can enhance or improve their games... Yet for some reason those who don't like or want alignment can't accept this as truthful for us and continue to paint alignment as a straight jacket. I don't think there's any real understanding or even conversation to be had until they are willing to listento this point and accept that we, as well as the books, are not lying or mistaken about this... and that regardless of the fact that they continue to see alignment in this manner, they are the ones mis-representing what alignment is. I know I'm tired of repeating it.

Agreed.
 

It seems difficult to envision two exemplary LG nations coming to war. How likely does it seem to have an exemplary LG nation? How likely to have more than one? In a lot of fantasy, truly Good kingdoms tend to stand, shoulder to shoulder, opposing the forces of Evil. In a lot of other fantasy, the Kingdoms aren't even close to 100% Good.
 

What rule says the Invoker should lose his familiar if he angers one of his patrons? Is there one? Again, I'm not well versed with 4e.



Agreed.


Eh, IMO... I'm starting to notice that @pemerton seems adverse or downright opposed to answering many of the questions presented to him about the play example he chose to post (either ignoring them or side stepping them with the few vague answers that have been provided). I know I feel like I haven't gotten real answers to most of the questions I posed concerning the situation and I doubt you will get an answer to the ones you've asked.
 
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I would love to see a player who is upfront about playing a fallen paladin. What a cool idea.

But for you folks who like alignment, what constitutes an evil act? If the player says that he's fallen and you don't think so what happens? It's the whole paladin conundrum but reversed.
 

But for you folks who like alignment, what constitutes an evil act? If the player says that he's fallen and you don't think so what happens? It's the whole paladin conundrum but reversed.

I have to admit this would be a very funny scenario! Reminds me of when Balthazar could not kill himself in Charmed (don't poo-poo me too much, it was my Alyssa Milano period).
 

So... she wants to play a paladin... but not abide by the restrictions of a paladin?? Why do you think the player chose a paladin over say a fighter, cleric, fighter/cleric or any other class that didn't have a requirement to be honorable and good?
I don't know [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]'s player (her being in another hemisphere and all), but this doesn't strike me as very puzzling. I prefer paladins to clerics (and if I were to play a cleric would prefer a STR cleric to a WIS cleric) because I prefer the archetype of a holy warrior to the archetype of the non-warrior saint and miracle worker, which the D&D cleric at least flirts with.

And I can imagine wanting to play the archetype of an avenger (in the BECMI sense) rather than of a fighter or cleric: a dark warrior called to the service of some god like Bane or Asmodeus, a sort-of punisher for the gods, angel-of-vengeance figure.

The paladin of the Raven Queen in my 4e campaign falls somewhere between these two archetypes (or, rather, mixes elements of both).

I am glad you can understand that some people might actually enjoy playing through the experience that mechanical alignment gives. It seems that for some reason regardless of the various reasons given some posters are focusing in on "PUNISHMENT" as the reason for wanting mechanical alignment and that isn't necessarily the case.
Which posters? I have repeatedly stated my understanding of why [MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION] and [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] enjoy alignment mechanics, and neither has posted to tell me I'm wrong though both are clearly following and participating in the thread. (Perhaps you have some other poster in mind - [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]? It would aid communication if you made it clear who you are talking about.)

But as [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] said, those reasons don't speak to me (and I believe they do not speak very strongly to my players either). And I don't understand why you and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] are trying to persuade me I'm confused about my own preferences and my own play experience.

I'm starting to notice that pemerton seems adverse or downright opposed to answering many of the questions presented to him about the play example he chose to post (either ignoring them or side stepping them with the few vague answers that have been provided). I know I feel like I haven't gotten real answers to most of the questions I posed concerning the situation and I doubt you will get an answer to the ones you've asked.
You're joking, right? I posted 5 posts yesterday evening (from 684 to 689, with one of those being S'mon) amounting to around two-and-half thousand words. I explained in (excruciating) detail the difference between evaluative and non-evaluative judgement, between various forms of penalty, between mechanical effectiveness and fictional positioning.

If you want to persuade me that I'm wrong to think alignment is an impediment to my play experience, why don't you write up some actual play reports that illustrate how great it is?

Similarly, if you think the way I run my game is no different from yours or [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION]'s, post some play reports and then we'll see.
 

That's a matter of taste and mechanics. For those of us who don't run with mechanical alignment because we don't like it, it is not part of the setting.

You might not have mechanical alignment but you certainly have good and evil deities, lawful and chaotic organisations, neutral races, evil brigands. Alignment whether mechanical or not is very much part of D&D settings.

Furthermore, for many of us, the GM is not the sole arbiter of the setting. Even according to the 2nd ed AD&D DMG, which both you and @Cadence have cited upthread, the GM is not the sole arbiter of the setting.

In so much as world building the DM is the sole arbiter, the PCs are involved in their own backstory if they fit in with the DM's world. The PCs actions can change things within the setting as they are actively involved within the setting. But the game is both the DMs and the PCs.

I appreciate that you state your reasons for liking alignment clearly. I have restated them more than once upthread, and I hope I haven't got them too wrong - it's certainly not been my intention to misrepresent or unfairly describe you. (I believe I have mentioned you every time, so that if you feel I have got you wrong then you can correct me.)

I appreciate that, you have more or less got it right, I would only jump in if I really felt I needed to.

As I have posted upthread more than once, the concern you state in this paragraph that I have quoted is not one that I share. In my game, I see no evidence that the player of a paladin gains a mechanical advantage by choosing to be dishonourable. Hence there is not the sort of conflict-of-interest that you describe. Hence I have no need to be an external arbiter of the player's choices as to how his/her PC behaves.

I believe @N'raac answered you on this point in his most recent post.

But despite mechanical advantages or not, it would also break immersion for the rest of us at our table if the character behaved in any which way he wanted without any repercussions. As I have said before, my players and I prefer a heavier consequence game - and they would definitely look to me as DM if some player was behaving against their divine code (paladin or cleric). I guess they share the view that deities are separate from their PCs and the the PCs are but mortal agents of the deities within the setting. Their (the PCs) divine gifts are just that gifts, that can be taken away if the PC behaves poorly. This is the view the players in my group share with me - and as I have said before, I have never had to exercise that, it is just part of the unspoken setting background that exists.
 
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So there should never be a situation where realizing your desires might be facilitated by dishonourable action?

<snip>

You would like the Holy Avenger longsword. It would give you mechanical benefits. It is held by your superior, although if he were out of the picture, you would be the likely inheritor of the weapon in question, a relic of your order, as you would be the most likely to be chosen to succeed him. That fellow is currently in a bit of trouble with the Order. You have stumbled upon a clue that might lead to his exoneration. You can ignore the clue, or follow up on it.

Sweeping it under the carpet likely gets you a mechanical advantage in the form of the Sword and the increase in rank in your order. Doing the honourable thing - proving his innocence - does not. Mechanical advantage gained from dishonourable behaviour.
I don't see how the above really relates to what I said, which was that when I play an honourable warrior answering a divine calling I want to have as much meaningful (= desired) impact on the fiction as the other players.

The example you give, for instance, seems to equate the PCs desires with those of the player (after all it is the PC's action which is dishonourable, presumably - I assume you're not asking whether I would lie to or betray the friends with whom I play the game).

But the example also rests on certain assumptions such as that my PC won't get a holy avenger longsword except by the path you describe. That might be so in your game, but why would I play a game like that? The edition of D&D I run is 4e, where item acquisition is on a level-based rationing, and whether I do the honourable or the dishonourable thing has no bearing on how many XP I earn.

you have emerged from a secret door in the midst of battle. A great enemy has his back to you as he battles another opponent. Do you slip up behind him for a Flanking bonus, or call out "Face me, Blackguard" so he can position himself where he cannot be flanked?
I don't know - put me in the situation and let's find out. If it's a dragon, I'd probably flank it. I don't see that dragons are entitled to a fair duel. If it was a hobgoblin war chief I might not flank.

The 4e paladin has various powers intended to support the paladin in soloing in various ways, so that not flanking is not necessarily a mechanical disadvantage.

So is this only an issue when the Power doing the judging is acknowledged as Good?
I'm not 100% sure what the "this" referes to, but the issue of the GM superintending the players' evaluative judgements becomes particularly acute when the "power" doing the judging is a moral exemplar, yes. I hoped I had made that clear some hundreds of posts ago.

I also hope I've made it clear that the player in the example I posted didn't think that his PC was doing the right thing by Vecna's lights. He knew he was opposing Vecna, and Vecna's interests, and Vecna's desires. I forced him to choose between the Raven Queen and Vecna - a choice I do not believe he was that surprised to have forced upon him - and he chose. He wasn't surprised that Vecna then punished him by shutting down his imp.

The player could, of course, have chosen Vecna. The Raven Queen would then not have had any immediate means of punishing the PC; and at least in the immediate term, the other PCs probably wouldn't have noticed. The player deliberately took the risk of suffering punishment, to which he knew he was exposed - he had deliberately implanted the Eye in the imp to bring Vecna into play as a counterbalancing force against Levistus - because in the play of his PC he had an evaluative response. There are some resemblances here to player wanting his/her paladin to fall.

He has all the same options? Where is the Familiar his class abilities grant him? Where are the benefits of his magical loot, the Eye of Vecna? They were taken from him, and in a manner someone above noted was outside the action resolution mechanics.
They were not taken outside the action resolution mechanics. They were taken as part of the resolution of a skill challenge. Furthermore, it is inherent in a 4e familiar that it may be shut down. And it is inherent in a 4e artefact like the Eye of Vecna that it is somewhat overpowered but also potentially temperamental.

The key issue for me is that the player's evaluative judgement is not invalidated, nor even called into question, in the episode of play I described.

In choosing to play a Paladin, the player has chosen a character who must either live up to the ideals of his Exemplar or fall. That's the contract he, the player, made by choosing the class with those rules. That really doesn't seem that difficult a concept from where I sit.
What contract? With whom? Are you talking about the player or the PC? My players don't enter into any contract with me. And paladins don't enter into a contract with the divine, at least as I conceive of them. They are not Faust; they are Joan of Arc.

Of course they must live up to certain ideals or fall, but that doesn't tell us anything about who adjudicates that matter in the course of play.

I find that if people are aware their actions are under a microscope, they will behave differently, without full autonomy. Further, the pressure may "lock them up". I don't want that with people I trust to both be sincere in their play and be provocative and dynamic (coherently) when responding to adversity.
This is a good description of my own play experiences and play preferences.
 

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