D&D 5E Will the inclusion of the option of DoaM cause you to not buy 5e.

[Jester David]

There's no option in the poll for my feelings.

I'm not a fan of how DoaM affects the narrative.
But DoaM is fine as an option, so long as it's something that can be easily pulled from the game in one swift move without impacting choices or gameplay. A feat or rules module are fine, or even a subclass.

The problem happens if it's just allowed to exist as a rule, as it will creep elsewhere into the fame. There's already one monster that uses it. Unless there is an intentional and obvious effort to keep its use restrained, DoaM will spread. Mechanics seldom remain unused if they're a part of the game. even if the current staff avoid using DoaM there's no guarantee freelancers or the people who take over in three years will know.

 

[Lanefan]

So...if they changed a dragon's breath to be an attack rather than a saving throw but leave in half damage, you won't play?

Please explain how a saving throw and an attack roll are different? ...

Area effect vs. targeted.

Most things requiring a save-for-half (e.g. the breath of a dragon) do their damage over an area - you're caught in it and are going to take more or less damage depending on how the dice roll. Someone swinging a 2-handed sword is not, by the definitions inherent in the game, launching an area-effect attack. It's targeted, and if you hit the target you get to do some damage and if you miss, you don't.

Lan-"ouch"-efan

 

[Uller]

Area effect vs. targeted.


Lan-"ouch"-efan

Melf's Acid Arrow. Targeted attack, half damage on a miss. Storm of Vengence, 3rd effect. Up to six creatures are targeted, save for half. I see no reason why a mechanic should be limited to only certain classes or only to spells and breath weapons. I don't think DoaM is a good choice for GWF, but I see no reason why DoaM should not be a part of the game in principle. Designers should not allow themselves to be painted into a corner by those who loudly protest a particular rule.

 

[Jester David]

Melf's Acid Arrow. Targeted attack, half damage on a miss. Storm of Vengence, 3rd effect. Up to six creatures are targeted, save for half. I see no reason why a mechanic should be limited to only certain classes or only to spells and breath weapons. I don't think DoaM is a good choice for GWF, but I see no reason why DoaM should not be a part of the game in principle. Designers should not allow themselves to be painted into a corner by those who loudly protest a particular rule.

That's a very good case for those spells not to have half damage. Acid Arrow should be an all-or-nothing spell (perhaps not being expended if it misses).

However, non-magical AoEs like grenades or flasks of oil should also deal half damage. Any time where you're not targeting a creature but an area, when actually making direct contact with the enemy doesn't matter, then half damage is appropriate.

 

[Obryn]

That's a very good case for those spells not to have half damage.

That's kind of besides the point, though?

"Damage doesn't happen on a miss" "Yes, it does; here's examples." "Oh, those shouldn't have damage on a miss then."

 

[Jester David]

That's kind of besides the point, though?

"Damage doesn't happen on a miss" "Yes, it does; here's examples." "Oh, those shouldn't have damage on a miss then."

Damage on a miss from AoEs or spell effects has never been an issue. The issue is damage on a miss from single target attacks where you either hit your enemy or miss your enemy.

People hate DoaM. It's problematic enough that ENWorld wanted to ghettoize the discussion to save the rest if their forums. That's not the sort of mechanic worth fighting for. It's not worth the trouble of including on the game (at least as a base option).

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't care if it gets included as an option, but some fans of it might change their tune when the shoe is on the other foot.

PCs often find themselves outnumbered by lesser foes. Suppose a PC gets surrounded by 1st level fighter guards.

" Ok you are surrounded by 8 greatsword wielding guards. They all miss- you take 24 damage and are killed. Next!"

Things look good on paper until they get used on you.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't care if it gets included as an option, but some fans of it might change their tune when the shoe is on the other foot.

PCs often find themselves outnumbered by lesser foes. Suppose a PC gets surrounded by 1st level fighter guards.

" Ok you are surrounded by 8 greatsword wielding guards. They all miss- you take 24 damage and are killed. Next!"

Things look good on paper until they get used on you.

If you can't take 24 damage, 8 fighters should kill you anyway.

I am still in the belief that DOAM was created because of the swinginess of low level combat when you lack clear advantage and the borengness of the combats if you do.

OD&D style gameplay is fun but I find it gets old fast. And so do many others. I'd hate to see an option to switch gameplay types removed.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Melf's Acid Arrow. Targeted attack, half damage on a miss. Storm of Vengence, 3rd effect. Up to six creatures are targeted, save for half. I see no reason why a mechanic should be limited to only certain classes or only to spells and breath weapons. I don't think DoaM is a good choice for GWF, but I see no reason why DoaM should not be a part of the game in principle. Designers should not allow themselves to be painted into a corner by those who loudly protest a particular rule.

Just so we are clear, damage on a miss was rampant in 4th edition. Melf's Acid Arrow didn't do damage on a miss. It was a ranged touch attack that did nothing if you missed. 4th edition gave all it's daily attack spells damage on a miss.

 

[Lanefan]

Melf's Acid Arrow. Targeted attack, half damage on a miss.

Not quite. In 1e it's a targeted attack, you need to roll to hit as if you're a fighter of your caster level; and if you miss nothing happens at all. (thus no DoaM) If you hit the actual arrow does 2-5 points damage and also gives off an acid splash which (depending how one reads the rather vague wording) may or may not have a save-for-half component...but note this is all after an actual hit has been rolled.

I *think* it worked similarly in later editions, can others here confirm?

Lanefan