D&D 5E No Cantrips Module

[ExploderWizard]

Would you mind not dragging that argument into this thread? I started it specifically because I was irritated with the "Pew Pew magic" thread, and wanted to discuss how the game could implement both options (casters with at-will cantrips and without them) instead of yelling about whose option should win. So far we've had a bunch of cool ideas and interesting discussion. Even if we don't end up with an official module for no-cantrip play, there's a ton of material here that people could use for homebrewing their own. I'd hate to see it degenerate into another slagfest.

There are ways to keep the cantrip idea without making them completely at-will. I don't think the solution has to be completely at-will cantrips or nothing. There is room for the idea to be implemented in other ways.

I use them in B/X. A mage gets points per day to spend on cantrips equal to INT+ level. Cantrip capacity increases with level just like other spellcasting powers. Thus it is possible to include cantrips without the at-will feature.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There are ways to keep the cantrip idea without making them completely at-will. I don't think the solution has to be completely at-will cantrips or nothing. There is room for the idea to be implemented in other ways.

I use them in B/X. A mage gets points per day to spend on cantrips equal to INT+ level. Cantrip capacity increases with level just like other spellcasting powers. Thus it is possible to include cantrips without the at-will feature.

Is that meaningfully, in-play, different to At-Will, though? Int + level basically means 12+ cantrips. Have your casters ever hit that outside of bizarre corner-case situations?

So it seems like 90% of the time you'd be uselessly tracking a number, there. At-Will frees you from tracking that number.

I'm talking real, in-game stuff, here, by the way, not theoretical situations.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Is that meaningfully, in-play, different to At-Will, though? Int + level basically means 12+ cantrips. Have your casters ever hit that outside of bizarre corner-case situations?

So it seems like 90% of the time you'd be uselessly tracking a number, there. At-Will frees you from tracking that number.

I'm talking real, in-game stuff, here, by the way, not theoretical situations.

I don't recall a caster ever expending all of their cantrip power in an adventuring day, but enough have come close to doing so to monitor their use.

At-will means zero consideration needs to be given. Points at least keep the magic user in its own niche of resource management & decision making.

 

[Sadras]

Read "magic" shouldn't even be a thing. Books and scrolls containing magic spells should be written in a variety of obscure, dead, and ancient languages that the Wizard may or may not be able to read based on his studies of said languages. (And, FWIW, anyone else who has studied these same languages should likewise be able to 'read' those same books... or course, doing so would be equivalent to a layman reading deep legalese, or computer code, or similar - they may know the words, but that doesn't mean they have the context to understand them.)

I agree. I have done something similar with Comprehend Languages, where the ritual is actually a derivative of an older and more powerful spell, Comprehendere Linguam. The ritual Comprehend Languages was originally created for simple use for merchant men, low-ranking wizard translators and for general use for legal contracts and the like - so it only functions for the most common current scripts.
Therefore Comprehend Languages is not able to decipher archaic or forgotten scripts - the wizard PC is now in search of the more powerful version of the spell Comprehendere Linguam.

I have taken spells even further - since we play in Mystara, specifically the Duchy of Karameikos, the wizard has found out that Glantrian wizards are able to cast more powerful or flexible versions of the spells but at exactly the same level. For instance, the Glantrian version of Comprehend Languages the Range is Touch, which allows someone else to benefit from the spell as opposed to only the caster.
Mage Armor can be cast as both from the School of Abjuration (current playtest) and from the School of Conjuration (3e). Mage Hand allows you to summon an additional hand but requires concentration. Flaming Sphere has additional range...etc
So introducing little changes here and there, which keeps the magic of the setting interesting and new.

Of course now the PC wants to travel to Glantri and learn their arcane casting style so he is saving up on monies for the Great School of Magic and is more than likely going to sell the Adventurer's Guild he owns.

There are ways to keep the cantrip idea without making them completely at-will. I don't think the solution has to be completely at-will cantrips or nothing. There is room for the idea to be implemented in other ways.

I use them in B/X. A mage gets points per day to spend on cantrips equal to INT+ level. Cantrip capacity increases with level just like other spellcasting powers. Thus it is possible to include cantrips without the at-will feature.

Personally I prefer intelligence modifier + level, but that it is refreshed between short rests similar in vein as @Mistwell proposed with a constitution check to push oneself further if they wanted but with different results (not wild magicky results) if one failed - I was thinking temporary blindness/deafness, headaches - therefore unable to cast concentrate spells, dizziness, nausea, nose bleeds, fainting..etc

 

[Dausuul]

Is that meaningfully, in-play, different to At-Will, though? Int + level basically means 12+ cantrips.

Yes, it is meaningfully different. Being able to use a cantrip at will means that short durations become unlimited as long as you're willing to sit there re-upping the spell, and a small effect can be built into a big effect over time. Somebody above gave the example of using acid splash over and over to eat through a wall. You could keep a minor illusion going for hours. You could remove the contents of a treasure chest with mage hand piece by piece.

No, I wouldn't expect PCs to hit the limit very often casting attack cantrips in the intended way, but it's very common for people with at-will magical abilities to find uses for those abilities that depend on having no usage limit. You will note that create water is not on the cantrip list in 5E.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Personally I prefer intelligence modifier + level, but that it is refreshed between short rests similar in the same vein as @Mistwell proposed with a constitution check to push oneself further if they wanted but with different results (not wild magicky results) if one failed - I was thinking temporary blindness/deafness, headaches - therefore unable to cast concentrate spells, dizziness, nausea, nose bleeds, fainting..etc

Same kind of deal, different implementation to suit personal taste. Either way its a decent third option between unlimited magic and no cantrips for ju!

 

[keterys]

What if cantrips were unlimited, but inflicted a minor penalty?

Like, let's say that using a cantrip gives you -1 max hp for a minute, cumulative. So if you cast 5 cantrips in a minute you're at -5 hp which is a Big Deal TM, but over the course of a day you can space them out and it's no harm at all.

That's more complicated than I'd want it to work, but just getting a feel for what types of things can bridge the gap.

 

[Sadras]

What if cantrips were unlimited, but inflicted a minor penalty?

Like, let's say that using a cantrip gives you -1 max hp for a minute, cumulative. So if you cast 5 cantrips in a minute you're at -5 hp which is a Big Deal TM, but over the course of a day you can space them out and it's no harm at all.

That's more complicated than I'd want it to work, but just getting a feel for what types of things can bridge the gap.

That is cute. We have capped hit points at level 6, and brought in wounds (similar to the 5e Fatigue rules) - so something like this would make a whole lot of sense since hp for our group constitute endurance, luck, morale, providence and the like. It works. So many good ideas here.

 

[Jacob Marley]

What if cantrips were unlimited, but inflicted a minor penalty?

Like, let's say that using a cantrip gives you -1 max hp for a minute, cumulative. So if you cast 5 cantrips in a minute you're at -5 hp which is a Big Deal TM, but over the course of a day you can space them out and it's no harm at all.

That's more complicated than I'd want it to work, but just getting a feel for what types of things can bridge the gap.

It's interesting, but players are often known for not liking game elements that affect them negatively (see 3.x experience point costs for certain spells, for example). Even though it is a short duration, I can see a lot of players not enjoying it.

Personally, I like there to be some tension in decision-making, and I'd prefer something closer to the Reserve Feats from 3.x - have the at-wills powered off higher level spell slots. So long as the spell slot is open, the at-will works fine. Once the spell slot has been used, then the at-wills diminish in utility eventually reaching the point where they no longer work.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

1. At a minimum there is a need for a means to Read Magic. If you can't have it as a cantrip, then the ability needs to be integrated somehow.

I'm kind of new around here, but I can't tell whether or not you're joking. Just based on personal experience, I've prepared Read Magic probably a dozen times throughout the various editions, but there's simply never been a reason to cast it. Maybe because we've never figured out how you're supposed to write magic, so we just have inscriptions and spellbooks written in a mundane existing language.

It certainly wouldn't be something that sticks out in my mind as a mandatory ability that must be included if cantrips were removed.