D&D 5E Prestige Classes and similar things

[The Crimson Binome]

What I meant with "built around requirements" is that (once your prestige class is designed) every member of a prestige class have in common its requirements + the 1st level features, but also every prestige class has some requirements at least, so presumably a 5e mechanics that wants to represent the same thing as prestige classes needs to support requirements (that's one reason why I wrote that subclasses may not be good to represent prestige classes).

From a theoretical perspective, there's no reason you couldn't just have a prestige class with no pre-requisites, which grants all of those necessary commonalities at first level.

There's even precedence in the form of certain feats, which immediately grant the things that would have been pre-requisites under older editions. You don't need to know how to use a bow before you become an Archery Master.

 

[Derren]

Well the publication scheme is expected to be nowhere near the amount of 3e splatbooks. They will most likely fill supplements with subclasses, feats, spells, subraces (less), backgrounds (much less), and rules modules.

I don't really see a difference between prestige classes and sub classes.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

This problem became especially clear in settings such as Rokugan where characters join a variety of schools or dojos that can provide tons of secret lore via feats, but the PCs have only a few to take.

As the DM, whenever it's appropriate to the narrative, you can just give abilities away. It's kind of like how wizards add spells automatically with level, but can also learn from scrolls.

If you slay a red dragon of adult age or older, you may be approached by the Order of the Crimson Shield. Anyone who joins the Order, and spends at least one week training with them, gains the benefit of advantage on all attack rolls made against dragons and resistance to fire damage.

It's not a feat or a sub-class. It's just something that happens.

 

[Li Shenron]

As the DM, whenever it's appropriate to the narrative, you can just give abilities away. It's kind of like how wizards add spells automatically with level, but can also learn from scrolls.

Sure! Rokugan even has additional systems for extra stuff that doesn't cost feats or anything. But then once you're out of the framework, the DM is on her own to judge the balance.

At least, 5e promises to make all this easier because of bounded accuracy: bonuses to d20 rolls are supposed to be rare, thus as long as those feats etc. add "horizontally" rather than "vertically", there shouldn't be major problems granting extra stuff (the matter is actually similar to granting magic items). It was a problem in 3e since it was instead the norm for most feats to grant bonuses to d20 rolls.

 

[the Jester]

I don't really see a difference between prestige classes and sub classes.

Subclasses are specific to a given class, while prestige classes are available to many classes.

For example, while "priest of knowledge" might be a subclass, a comparable prestige class might be "oracle", where anyone who can cast spells can gain some ability to foretell the future. If prestige classes are subclasses, then this oracle option exists ONLY for clerics (or wizards, or whatever- only for ONE class).

To me, that's a pretty significant difference.

 

[Derren]

Subclasses are specific to a given class, while prestige classes are available to many classes.

To me, that's a pretty significant difference.

Mechanically yes, although many PrCs required certain class features anyway as prerequisite. But both cover specific concepts which are more specialized than the starter classes and serve as page fillers for new books. So instead of a Prestige Class bloat we will likely see a Sub Class bloat with the usual danger of power creep once WotC runs out of ideas.
Because there is no way WotC will settle with selling less books and reduce their sales.

 

[the Jester]

Mechanically yes, although many PrCs required certain class features anyway as prerequisite. But both cover specific concepts which are more specialized than the starter classes and serve as page fillers for new books. So instead of a Prestige Class bloat we will likely see a Sub Class bloat with the usual danger of power creep once WotC runs out of ideas.

Possibly, but that's orthogonal to my question.

I'll accept that the two things (sub- and prestige classes) both fill pages; my question is whether we'll still see prestige classes in 5e, and my current answer is, "I hope so, but kind of doubt it."

I was hoping someone might have something more solid for me.

 

[Mistwell]

Prestige classes in 3e got screwed up as they were used perhaps more than anything else in 3e. The intent was to decide what you wanted to focus on, and then choose (or create) a prestige class from that. Instead, people looked at the available mechanics states in various prestige classes, said they wanted that mechanic, and so adapted their role playing to fit the prestige class that provided that mechanic. And then, due to lack of limits on choosing them, often people would just multiple prestige classes to enter, again purely for a mechanic they wanted in it.

That was exactly the opposite of the original intent of prestige classes, which were supposed to represent the role playing goals you naturally chose within the game. You were never intended to go shopping at Walmart for mechanics you liked and then pick prestige classes to match those mechanics.

And of course many regular abilities of various classes failed to function as intended in unexpected ways when combined with some of those prestige class mechanics - which were often never contemplated at the time some other ability was drawn up for a regular class.

I would much rather have no prestige classes, and players just role played the goals they want, than go through that mess again.

 

[Li Shenron]

Prestige classes in 3e got screwed up as they were used perhaps more than anything else in 3e. The intent was to decide what you wanted to focus on, and then choose (or create) a prestige class from that. Instead, people looked at the available mechanics states in various prestige classes, said they wanted that mechanic, and so adapted their role playing to fit the prestige class that provided that mechanic. And then, due to lack of limits on choosing them, often people would just multiple prestige classes to enter, again purely for a mechanic they wanted in it.

That was exactly the opposite of the original intent of prestige classes, which were supposed to represent the role playing goals you naturally chose within the game. You were never intended to go shopping at Walmart for mechanics you liked and then pick prestige classes to match those mechanics.

And of course many regular abilities of various classes failed to function as intended in unexpected ways when combined with some of those prestige class mechanics - which were often never contemplated at the time some other ability was drawn up for a regular class.

I would much rather have no prestige classes, and players just role played the goals they want, than go through that mess again.

I agree.

I want to add that IMO all that mess could have been avoided if the core multiclassing rules had been simpler and more restrictive, such as "each character can have maximum 2 base classes and 1 prestige class", then let the DM loosen the restriction or totally eliminate it.

 

[ambroseji]

I agree with Mistwell that the way prestige classes were used in practice was much different than how they were intended to be used.

I think that the current 5e style feats can fill the need for any mechanical specialization a character wants to have. They can have prerequisites if needed, and are otherwise available to any class. We've seen Arcane Archer done this way, and I think that as long as similar feats are designed to have a great enough impact on the character, they can function similarly to how prestige classes have been used in the class. Want to play an archer who imbues their arrows with magic? Take the Arcane Archer feat.

On the other hand, I think that tying a character into the world should be handled with background-like features, not 'hard' mechanics. For example, a fighter starts off with the soldier background, but over the course of an adventure he has a religious conversion and begins working for the church. As a DM, I would probably use whatever downtime mechanics we end up with to give that character "story-mechanics" that are similar and equivalent to the priest background. Perhaps even proficiency in the Religion skill.

To summarize, I think that prestige classes attempted to do two different things, provide unique, flavorful, mechanics, and connect characters to the world and its organizations. I believe 5e would be best served to do those things with separate mechanics.

I know that some people want certain fighting styles to be unique to particular orders or secret societies, and if that's the case, then all that needs to be done is add story prerequisites to taking those feats. It would still allow other groups to cherry pick their mechanics without the story elements, if desired.