The Great Wheel: Positioning Gehenna and Tarterus/Carceri

[DMZ2112]

I've always had a tough time remembering the order the lower planes come in on the Great Wheel, and I think I just came to understand why: Gehenna and Tarterus/Carceri are flipped.

Can anyone defend the existing design concepts of Gehenna and Tarterus/Carceri in a comparative light and with an eye on their respective positions in the alignment rose?

Gehenna is a violent, elemental plane of floating active volcanoes. Tarterus/Carceri is a prison plane made up of a string of nested spheres. So why is Gehenna the plane of Neutral Evil Law and Tarterus/Carceri the plane of Neutral Evil Chaos?

I know that the NE(L) gods live on Gehenna and the NE(C) gods live on Carceri, but that is a foregone conclusion. I don't think arguments involving the gods and other denizens of these planes hold water, because for the most part they've been assigned according to alignment, not geography.

There's nothing about the geography of Gehenna that would preclude the Revolutionary League building their headquarters there, if it were the plane of NE(C), for instance, and there's nothing about Tarterus/Carceri that would not suit Loviatar if it were the plane of NE(L).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Defend?

Nah, bro, you want to flip 'em, go ahead and flip 'em. The existing layout's just a yugoloth conspiracy anyway.

Explain? Reason? Describe? Justify? Sure, that I can help with.

Carceri/Tarterus in my mind leans Chaotic because it is a plane of "imprisonment" where the inmates run the show. The creatures locked away here are locked away because they broke the rules, or at least disregarded them. The idea on everyone's mind is escape -- freedom, liberation. But they're metaphysically unable to attain the freedom they desire. They're too self-interested to work together to attain their freedom. They're chaotic -- they rebel, they are individualists, they fight the power -- but they're more evil than they are chaotic. They're more interested in getting ahead than in defying the order that has them imprisoned. Carceri exists because these people feel persecuted, like victims of law and order and other people. So in death, they are persecuted as well.

Gehenna in my mind leans Lawful in a way not entirely dissimilar. It is a place of insular in-groups, of xenophobia and suspicion of outsiders. Little petty warlords on their petty thrones. This is mimicked in the shape of the mountains: there is a social stratum, there are people at the top...of course, those people are at the top of a crappy little mountain, not really ruling over much of anything of worth. But that's the mindset, right? Any petty power over any petty aspect of life that gives you a little bit of an edge, makes you feel like a big tuff guy. Charity's for dupes and what I like is best. Of course, their vision is limited...they don't have imperial visions or want to rule the world. Too much hassle, too much investment in what other people want or think. Just give me my throne of propaganda on my molehill of manure, and I'll be happy. The people who wind up in Gehenna are far too self-interested to do the hard work necessary to truly build a lasting dominion of evil, but they're happy to bully and backstab and work together to make the lives of everyone not playing by their rules miserable.

That's how I see it as it is currently laid out. Not that this is sacrosanct at all, just that I think it's a fun way to see them.

 

[the Jester]

I suspect the out-of-game reason has to do with the classical Titans as presented in the 1e Deities and Demigods book (which is to say, Chaotic Evil), and the fact that, in myth, they are imprisoned in Tarterus.

EDIT: Added "out of game" above.

 

[DMZ2112]

Defend?

Nah, bro, you want to flip 'em, go ahead and flip 'em. The existing layout's just a yugoloth conspiracy anyway.

Explain? Reason? Describe? Justify? Sure, that I can help with.

Carceri/Tarterus in my mind leans Chaotic because it is a plane of "imprisonment" where the inmates run the show. The creatures locked away here are locked away because they broke the rules, or at least disregarded them. The idea on everyone's mind is escape -- freedom, liberation. But they're metaphysically unable to attain the freedom they desire. They're too self-interested to work together to attain their freedom. They're chaotic -- they rebel, they are individualists, they fight the power -- but they're more evil than they are chaotic. They're more interested in getting ahead than in defying the order that has them imprisoned. Carceri exists because these people feel persecuted, like victims of law and order and other people. So in death, they are persecuted as well.

Gehenna in my mind leans Lawful in a way not entirely dissimilar. It is a place of insular in-groups, of xenophobia and suspicion of outsiders. Little petty warlords on their petty thrones. This is mimicked in the shape of the mountains: there is a social stratum, there are people at the top...of course, those people are at the top of a crappy little mountain, not really ruling over much of anything of worth. But that's the mindset, right? Any petty power over any petty aspect of life that gives you a little bit of an edge, makes you feel like a big tuff guy. Charity's for dupes and what I like is best. Of course, their vision is limited...they don't have imperial visions or want to rule the world. Too much hassle, too much investment in what other people want or think. Just give me my throne of propaganda on my molehill of manure, and I'll be happy. The people who wind up in Gehenna are far too self-interested to do the hard work necessary to truly build a lasting dominion of evil, but they're happy to bully and backstab and work together to make the lives of everyone not playing by their rules miserable.

That's how I see it as it is currently laid out. Not that this is sacrosanct at all, just that I think it's a fun way to see them.

I suspect the out-of-game reason has to do with the classical Titans as presented in the 1e Deities and Demigods book (which is to say, Chaotic Evil), and the fact that, in myth, they are imprisoned in Tarterus.

EDIT: Added "out of game" above.

Good posts. That's some insightful stuff. I hadn't looked at the question in quite those ways.

One of the things I've always liked about the Great Wheel is that the afterlife it proposes doesn't impose a lot of judgment. The only thing that ending up on an outer plane after death really means for a character, for certain, is that they will be surrounded by the souls and spirits of people who think the way they do. Whether that is a punishment or a reward is really up to the individual.

To that end, Tarterus/Carceri has always confused me, because it seems to impose an external punishment (imprisonment) that isn't reflected in the design of any other lower plane. Would you agree, or do you think there is something intrinsic about the NE(C) mind (or a group of such minds) that creates and maintains a prison for itself, in the same way that the CE minds of the Abyss create a power-mad pecking order to climb?

 

[Alzrius]

To that end, Tarterus/Carceri has always confused me, because it seems to impose an external punishment (imprisonment) that isn't reflected in the design of any other lower plane. Would you agree, or do you think there is something intrinsic about the NE(C) mind (or a group of such minds) that creates and maintains a prison for itself, in the same way that the CE minds of the Abyss create a power-mad pecking order to climb?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's no external punishment reflected in any other plane. Pandemonium, for example, inflicts madness on all who dwell there due to its howling winds.

That said, I agree with KM's take on those two planes (though I recall Gehenna being characterized as a plane of "fury," which still fits well with his description - it's a plane of would be despots and bullies who are trying to beat out other would-be despots and bullies through simple aggression. It's a literal plane of "king of the mountain," where the crap quite literally flows downhill).

 

[DMZ2112]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's no external punishment reflected in any other plane. Pandemonium, for example, inflicts madness on all who dwell there due to its howling winds.

I've always looked at it from the perspective that CN(E) petitioners are already mad, and it's catching. Travelers to the Abyss aren't an official part of its pecking order but that doesn't mean it can't kill or enslave them anyway.

I'm not sure that I necessarily agree that CN(E) = psychosis, but I see the intention, in any case. Certainly a lot of psychotics may end up behaving CN(E), regardless of their original alignment...

That said, I agree with KM's take on those two planes (though I recall Gehenna being characterized as a plane of "fury," which still fits well with his description - it's a plane of would be despots and bullies who are trying to beat out other would-be despots and bullies through simple aggression. It's a literal plane of "king of the mountain," where the crap quite literally flows downhill).

It's a very good synopsis. Honestly I'm a little disappointed with myself that I could not see it without help. Still struggling with Tarterus/Carceri, though.

 

[I'm A Banana]

One of the things I've always liked about the Great Wheel is that the afterlife it proposes doesn't impose a lot of judgment. The only thing that ending up on an outer plane after death really means for a character, for certain, is that they will be surrounded by the souls and spirits of people who think the way they do. Whether that is a punishment or a reward is really up to the individual.

To that end, Tarterus/Carceri has always confused me, because it seems to impose an external punishment (imprisonment) that isn't reflected in the design of any other lower plane. Would you agree, or do you think there is something intrinsic about the NE(C) mind (or a group of such minds) that creates and maintains a prison for itself, in the same way that the CE minds of the Abyss create a power-mad pecking order to climb?

You know the kind of person who always believes that they're the victim? The lady who pins all of her life's problems on her parents, or the guy who blames "the gubmint" for his rage and poverty, or the person who cries "religious persecution!" at the drop of a hat?

If the planes in D&D are belief made real, wouldn't it make sense that the D&D versions of these souls would *actually* have something out to get them in the afterlife? That all their persecution complexes and martyr cries would be rendered kind of true? The soul wants to be victimized, claims to be victimized, believes that it is victimized. Why wouldn't they be truly victims in death?

It might look like an external force, but it's really what they want, how they believe the world works. These people are happy to be victims. Being imprisoned by the multiverse is validating for them -- reality itself is out to get them here. They're speaking truth to power and dismantling the corrupt system and OF COURSE the voices of the planes would array to silence them by putting them in a planar prison!

The Anarchist's Faction who have their HQ here give a perspective on this: the believe all order and power is inherently corrupting, so they think that everyone's a victim of Big Something (or Big Everything). Of course they'd find a comfortable home in Carceri, where the plane reinforces that notion. And of course, that home would make them a conspiratorial and suspicious lot.

 

[Yora]

I've always had a tough time remembering the order the lower planes come in on the Great Wheel, and I think I just came to understand why: Gehenna and Tarterus/Carceri are flipped.

That actually makes perfect sense. It's a prision plane and a much more violent version of the Grey Wastes after all. I think I'm going to use this from now on.

 

[DMZ2112]

It might look like an external force, but it's really what they want, how they believe the world works. These people are happy to be victims. Being imprisoned by the multiverse is validating for them -- reality itself is out to get them here. They're speaking truth to power and dismantling the corrupt system and OF COURSE the voices of the planes would array to silence them by putting them in a planar prison!

Yeah, all right. I'm coming around. Carceri petitioners are the criminals who are chaotic enough to rankle at their imprisonment but still too selfish to run any risks to their own comfort. They're the ones who incite other prisoners to riot. If the riot succeeds, great, and if it doesn't, they are in a better position for not having wasted their own resources.

Contrast with the Abyss, where petitioners are willing to risk even death to claw their way up and assume control themselves, and with the Grey Wastes of Hades where petitioners are entirely too absorbed in their own plots to care that they are trapped by those same plots.

I would agree that these people you're describing would be NE(C), but the question remains: do all NE(C) characters necessarily have persecution complexes? There is a logic to the equivalency of CN(E) and psychosis, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, but I'm not sure I see the same logic joining NE(C) and institutional paranoia.

 

[TwoSix]

This has always been my personal favorite take on the Great Wheel.

http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-450472.html