Fighting the gods - ideas, tweaks?

[Dark Dragon]

Hi folks,

I am looking for some ideas on how to handle a fight between a group of epic PCs and twos god. And I mean the gods themselves, not merely avatars. I am thinking about something like the Titans vs. the Greek gods - with the PCs being the titans and two evil gods, well, the divine foes...

There are some rules about what a god can do and what he can't in Faiths and Pantheons. But since I've never played/DM'ed such an encounter before, I lack some experience and appreciate any thoughts on this matter.

The PCs will then have a CR value around 50 each. It is a group of 5 (maybe 6, depends on attendence of one player): three melee guys, one healer, one (or two) arcanists. All will be by then adult good dragons.

The gods will be Mephistopheles and Fierna who attained lesser divine status in my campaign. Fierna and the party have become archenemies over the past campaigns, and as it is now the last campaign with this epic group, I thought that it is time to resolve that feud

It should be a worthy fight, no tricky rules, fully uncertain in its outcome (I think that I will make all rolls openly), and of course thrilling and memorable. The fight will take in the Nine Hells, maybe Fierna's Palace (Belial will not be involved).

So ideas are very welcome!

 

[Celebrim]

Hi folks,

I am looking for some ideas on how to handle a fight between a group of epic PCs and twos god. And I mean the gods themselves, not merely avatars.

One of the problems with this is by the rules, a god can pretty much at will avoid any fight with a god or being of lesser status. They after all have at will teleport without error, are generally unscryable by any being of less stature, can take multiple actions per round, and have senses that allow them to detect any approaching PC from miles away (and in the some cases weeks in advance, as many have considerable ability to see into the future). So any god that feels actually threatened can simply avoid the fight pretty much indefinitely. In fact, if you are actually threatening a deity, the fight probably begins well in advance of any combat round as deities have almost infinite ability to harass PC's via long range spells and abilities (again with ranges in miles and often not bothered by line of sight) while avoiding any direct confrontation. They can also presumably prepare 'traps' using epic spellcasting to set the stage for any combat they might want to actually stoop to partaking in, and can summon thousands to ten's of thousands of personal agents to protect them and distract attackers. You don't just fight a god. You fight a god plus a couple of legions of their best troops. Mephistopheles is never going to fight anything that can't first fight through the cloud of 6000 Barbed Devils and 6000 Ice Devils surrounding him. So, expect for example to be hit by a couple hundred Order's Wrath (12th level caster), Unholy Blights (12th level caster) and a couple hundred ice storms (13th level caster) per round just to see if the attackers have actually thought this through to any reasonable degree.

 

[Ragmon]

Yea, what Celebrim said, they would basically go to war.

OR what we did once when we hit epic levels and tried to kill gods, we went after the believers, thus weakening the gods indirectly. This is a tedious but smart way if the "god rules" don't allow gods to directly interact with mortals.

But if you want a D&D type of fight, watch Immortals (the fight at the end with the gods vs titans) for some inspiration.
PS: I found it to be a good movie, don't let the rating deter you.

 

[Dark Dragon]

One of the problems with this is by the rules, a god can pretty much at will avoid any fight with a god or being of lesser status. They after all have at will teleport without error, are generally unscryable by any being of less stature, can take multiple actions per round, and have senses that allow them to detect any approaching PC from miles away (and in the some cases weeks in advance, as many have considerable ability to see into the future). So any god that feels actually threatened can simply avoid the fight pretty much indefinitely. In fact, if you are actually threatening a deity, the fight probably begins well in advance of any combat round as deities have almost infinite ability to harass PC's via long range spells and abilities (again with ranges in miles and often not bothered by line of sight) while avoiding any direct confrontation.

I fully agree, the powers at the disposal of gods are vast, and if they want, they could annihilate any potential threat well in advance before it materializes. But there some points argueing against such a strategy.

1) There are other gods. If one evil god decides to unleash hell directly versus his mortal adversaries (e.g. members of a good church), their patrons are likely to intervene. This normally makes sure that there is no mutual destruction of good and evil but a balance of power. This balance protects mortals from being killed by the greater powers. Granted, if PCs challenge a god directly, they in particular may loose their protection by their patron deities. This avoids too many challenges of gods by would-be mortal god-slayers, and keeps fights limited to the clan of the gods.
But I would say that the gods do not know in particular what a PC plans until he tells it a god or a faithful servant of the god directly. And so it makes predictions of the future more difficult.

2) Retreat (teleport) or avoiding combat is not a good option, especially concering gods that rule as tyrants. That would make them look weak among their followers.

3) Surprise is still possible. Other gods may support the PCs indirectly, shielding them from scrying, but using them as pawns to either keep the evil god busy or distracted for a while to proceed with their own plans instantly. Evil gods are known of not being reliable allies among themselves, they all have their own plans, and sometimes overlapping portfolios. Some PCs causing trouble for one evil god may be a helpful group for an other evil deity...

They can also presumably prepare 'traps' using epic spellcasting to set the stage for any combat they might want to actually stoop to partaking in, and can summon thousands to ten's of thousands of personal agents to protect them and distract attackers. You don't just fight a god. You fight a god plus a couple of legions of their best troops. Mephistopheles is never going to fight anything that can't first fight through the cloud of 6000 Barbed Devils and 6000 Ice Devils surrounding him. So, expect for example to be hit by a couple hundred Order's Wrath (12th level caster), Unholy Blights (12th level caster) and a couple hundred ice storms (13th level caster) per round just to see if the attackers have actually thought this through to any reasonable degree.

A smart AND powerful group has a good idea about the supporting troops of a deity... well they should have.
Mephistopheles' Barbed and Ice Devils would cast their spells, but breaking SRs between 35 and 40 is impossible for them. And some protection against energy is a basic preparation. These devils can't fly either, so real threats are only flying and strong body guards like pit fiends and horned devils. Even these guys would have a lot of trouble with the PCs' SR. So I assume that the fight would involve more the elite guard of M (like advanced fiends and devils) and M himself, maybe first supporting his guard before joining they battle more directly.

Ragmon

Yea, what Celebrim said, they would basically go to war.

OR what we did once when we hit epic levels and tried to kill gods, we went after the believers, thus weakening the gods indirectly. This is a tedious but smart way if the "god rules" don't allow gods to directly interact with mortals.

Well that could/would be a first step. Since the cults of Fierna and Mephisotopheles are not really big in number of members, and the mortal cult leaders are well known to the PCs, it makes sense to weaken the divine power of F and M by shattering their cults. This draws of course the attention of these two gods on the PCs...

Ragmon
But if you want a D&D type of fight, watch Immortals (the fight at the end with the gods vs titans) for some inspiration.
PS: I found it to be a good movie, don't let the rating deter you.

Yes, that was something I had in mind. IIRC, some of the gods were killed in that bloodbath...

 

[Celebrim]

Mephistopheles' Barbed and Ice Devils would cast their spells, but breaking SRs between 35 and 40 is impossible for them.

Having SR's above 30 is pretty much essential to the attack. Out of curiosity, how did they manage SR's above 30? Adult gold dragons don't have that level of protection. The gods themselves probably only have SR around 38.

And some protection against energy is a basic preparation.

Sure. But the spells were chosen as examples on the grounds that energy resistance itself provided insufficient protection. Ice storms do bludgeoning damage. The others do alignment damage. If you come in without complete immunity to spells, you die. If you come in without complete immunity to spells that can't be disjoined, you die a round later - assuming that a disjunction trap isn't the sort of thing that a god hasn't set up as a trap if his domain is entered against his will.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm not sure you can have PCs that high, and fighting gods no less, without "tricky rules." That said, the existing mechanics for gods in 3.X are not that great, especially versus mortal opponents.

It's far better, in my opinion, if exceptionally high levels and divine ascension exist in a continuum, with the two bleeding over into each other (e.g. once you start gaining that much power, you essentially start becoming a god - and vice versa; when you become a god, that means you have a huge number of levels).

It's in that spirit that I recommend The Immortal's Handbook: Ascension, which puts divine ascension on a much wider scale for what's allowable (sub-demigods to beyond overgods) and keeps it PC-focused. There's also an Epic Bestiary as a companion product.

Finally, if you want an excellent book that discusses (with a modest focus on a universal mechanic) the nature of divinity in an RPG - and the inspiration for the Immortal's Handbook titles - consider checking out The Primal Order.

 

[Starfox]

I feel "go to war" is a good analogy here. To defeat a god, you don't merely have to defeat it in battle, you have to shake the faith of it's believers, and you have to have your own faith tested. I'd require numerous quests, and some that could only be done by astrally projecting into a world dominated by these deities and manifesting there as a lowly commoner. Once there, you'd have to survive moral and ethical quandaries highlighting the dogma of these gods and what the PCs want to replace them with.

 

[gamerprinter]

As long as the god-fighters in question have the actual capability to kill these deities (your first consideration), I think its going to take trickery, threatening their major temples or other locations of earthly concern from these particular deities - you're going to make them want to get directly involved with your PCs, as in having no choice or lose something the deities hold dear. Perhaps 'capture', 'threaten', or 'kill' a lesser deity that has a close relationship to these deities. A direct challenge by the PCs will probably not coax the gods to want to fight, but, as stated, giving them a very strong reason forcing their hand is the way to do it. Though, since I don't your deities being used and how much power their do or do not have, I can't give you an exact method of attracting their full attention.

 

[Starfox]

Perhaps 'capture', 'threaten', or 'kill' a lesser deity that has a close relationship to these deities.

THis could work, but its tricky of the players want to keep the moral high ground.

 

[gamerprinter]

THis could work, but its tricky of the players want to keep the moral high ground.

Simply capturing and binding the lesser deity, especially if its a morally 'evil' deity, might maintain their moral high ground and gain the attentions from the deities they really want to deal with...