Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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When I play a paladin I play a character who believes in the reality of providence, and hence disavows all dishonourable and unjust conduct. Claims that evil must be done so that good can ultimately triumph are, for the character I am interested in playing, flawed for two reasons: first, they are empirically false; second, they are betrayals of faith in that divine providence which ensures that those who act morally will not be betrayed.

<snip>

These are the sorts of characters I want to play. The D&D paladin captures them very well mechanically - a warrior who is divinely bless, can heal with a touch and smite his/her enemies - except that the alignment mechanics get in the way, by either ruling out from the get-go the cosmological world view that underpins the class, or (on a different approach to them) turning the character more-or-less into the GM's puppet.
In what way does it rule out the cosmological world view? As for turning a character into a GM's puppet, the GM has much better tools than alignment if that's what they're going for.
I feel the exact opposite- that the alignment rules support the Paladin (and to a certain degree, Clerics), and in many ways, the game would almost not need the Alignment rules were Paladins not part of the game.
Between reading the rules in two editions of AD&D rulebooks and the 3E SRD, and reading all the posts on this thread, I have come up with two pictures of how alignment works.

The one that seems to be run most strongly on this thread - eg by [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] and [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] and I think also [MENTION=16726]jsaving[/MENTION] - is that alignment is a series of labels for sets of things that might be valued. Those who value authority and innocent life are LG. Those who value freedom and lack compassion are CE. And so on.

On this picture, it makes sense for a character to decide that the right thing to do is something which is labelled evil - for instance, the right thing to do is to kill an innocent person, thereby "debasing or destroying an innocent life" - because the character decides that, on balance and in these circumstances, there are other things more important than valuing compassion.

And from the point of view of the universe, on this approach, there is no answer to whether or not that character has done the right thing. Of course if s/he is a paladin s/he will fall, for knowingly and wilfully committing an evil act, but that might just show that his/her god is mistaken, and needlessly fetishes compassion for the innocent over other, potentially more important, things. (There is a puzzle, on this approach, as to only why authority-and-compassion fetishists bestow their warriors with divine power, but we'll let that pass.)

This cosmological approach makes the paladin archetype impossible as soon as it becomes known, because on this approach the universe itself is essentially uncaring. There is no providence. There is no reason, ultimately, to be LG rather than CE.

An alternative approach to understanding alignment is my default understanding. [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] and, at least as I have read him, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] have articulated similar views in this thread. On this approach, it is taken for granted that there is always a reason to be Good rather than Evil, and hence that the Evil are doing the wrong thing. This is also the worldview of the paladin, although (i) the archetypal paladin has a different sense of what is good from the typical modern person (eg more militarist, and less democratic) and (ii) the paladin also has providential convictions which are probably less common among modern people than they once were.

The problem that alignment mechanics pose for playing a paladin, on this approach, is that they put the GM in charge of deciding what is Good. So the player of the paladin can't know what his/her PC has a reason to do until s/he asks the GM what would count as Good or Evil in a particular situation. Hence putting the GM in ultimate control of the PC's actions.

As I've already stated upthread, my way of dealing with this issue is to dispense with alignment, and to let the player of the paladin decide what counts as meeting the moral demands that the universe lays down. (And I've also talked about various techniques that can be used to help this work - eg don't systematically frame the game in such a way that the player will have a mechanically easier time of it by having his/her PC depart from the convictions that s/he has laid down for it. A simple example I've given upthread is this: if the players decide to have their PCs take prisoners, whom they then release on parole, as a GM have the prisoners keep their promise.)

In what way are these ideas different? Is it because one has a hard written list of rules they must abide by (The Paladin's Code) while the other presumably does not?
The difference, as I see it, is that in a world in which there is no inherent reason to be Good rather than Evil - these are just two approaches to valuing order and compassion for the innocent, which one picks and chooses between as seems right - then the code is essentially a contract: the paladin promises to do X and refrain from Y in return for power.

Whereas the true paladin archetype, as I see it, answers a providential call, and thereby honours those values which are the only true values, departure from which simply betrays a misunderstanding of the demands of honour and duty, and of the ways of providence.

Yes the code is arbitrary but so are all codes of conduct
I don't agree with this. I don't see the code as arbitrary. I have a fondness for the treatment of this in the Dragonlance trilogy: the Knights of Solamnia had come to treat their code as if it were arbitrary, but Sturm Brightblade showed, by his actions, that this itself was a type of fall from grace, and that the code existed for a reason and had to be understood and complied with in the spirit of that underlying reason.

The Paladin subscribes to a code of conduct and is blessed by divine providence for it, however there are also Blackguards and Evil Clerics who are also blessed by divine providence for their behaviour.
On the worldview of the paladin, as I understand it, anti-clerics and anti-paladins (to use the original game terms) are not blessed at all. They are cursed. Fallen. Guilty of fundamental error.

You characterisation of Blackguards and Evil Clerics treats them as basically symmetrical with the paladin, in cosmological terms. In my view, once the game overtly affirms such a cosmology, it has ruled out the paladin archetype as I understand it. For instance, if the correct way to think of a Blackguard is as blessed, like a paladin, but just by a different god, then the paladin's conviction that providence is on his/her side is revealed as objectively mistaken. S/he is simply playing for a different team.

Unless you're running a game where only Good gods exist, or at least only they bestow blessings on their faithful, the Paladin must accept that he lives in a world where Evil has power, where there are rewards for being dishonourable and cruel, and he must stand by his code in spite of that.
Of course the paladin has to accept that the Evil wield power. But s/he does not have to accept that they are being rewarded. In fact, s/he denies that. It only looks like they are being rewarded, because the workings of providence have not been factored in. Hence the error I described, in thinking that it is necessary to do Evil in order to realise good things: this thought is both false (because it disregards that providence will ensure justice) and a great sin (because it is a betrayal of faith in the workings of providence).

I think you are both right and wrong to talk about "only Good gods existing". On my preferred approach, alignment is not used. Hence, it is up to each player, in the course of playing his/her PC, to decide who is on the side of providence - and hence genuinely good and (if you like) genuinely a god - and who is simply a devil or demon or at best a flawed exemplar of divinity.

I can give some examples of what I mean by reference to my current 4e game. The fighter/cleric of Moradin - who is for functional purposes a paladin - regards the Raven Queen as simply a jumped-up usurper of divine power, and not as a genuine god. The chaos sorcerer is an Adept of the primordial Chan, who describes herself as the Queen of Good Air Elementals. This character regards Chan as on the side of providence. But another PC - who is an invoker serving a range of gods including Erathis, Ioun, Pelor, Bane, Levistus, the Raven Queen and Vecna - regards Chan as first and foremost a primordial, and hence an enemy of the gods and of the divine plan. The fact that Chan has some friends among the gods, such as Corellon, just proves that those gods aren't properly on board with the plan, and are potentially dangerous backsliders!

In the playing of this game there is no metaframework to answer such questions as Who is really good?, or Which "gods" are really worth serving?, or Are the primordials really all evil? Disagreements about these questions, among the PCs as played by their players, is what gives the game most of its energy and forward momentum.

This is where mechanical alignment makes Paladins and Clerics more interesting (to me) because there is now the possibility for temptation, corruption, and ultimately a fall from grace. This can't happen in a descriptive alignment system because either A) the player never accepts that their character is acting out of alignment and refuses to change, or B) it's a scripted event and loses any kind of tension or drama.

In mechanical alignment you can force a player to weigh the benefits of holding to their alignment against practical concerns.
I don't fully understand where temptation comes from in a mechanical alignment system. Most of the examples I see tend to work around issues of expedience, rather than conflicts of value: for instance, to go back to the prisoner example, the player believe that sparing the PC would be the Good thing and that killing the prisoner would be Evil; but the player also believes that if the prisoner is spared then the GM will use the prisoner as a game element to make life harder for the PCs and thereby the players; hence, the player is tempted to declare that his/her PC kills the prisoner.

If that is a fair model of how the temptation works, then it rests on a number of assumptions about how play works that I don't share, particularly about how the GM will act and also the connection between "hard for the PCs" and "hard for the players". But as I said I don't fully understand the issue and am interested in what others have to say about it.

It is my experience that in a system without alignment that temptation generally arises in the form of conflicts of value: for instance, the invoker in my game had to choose, in a session earlier this year, whether to serve Vecna or the Raven Queen. He chose the Raven Queen, and therefore suffered retribution from Vecna. Another example happened a while ago now: the "paladin" of Moradin had to choose between a prisoner meeting the death that (in his view) she deserved, or honouring a promise that the other PCs had given in his name to have her spared, in return for information. (The other PCs had planned to kill her after manipulating her in this way to reveal the information. But the paladin came back into the interrogation room before they could bring this plan to fruition.) He chose to honour the promise, even though he hated the fact that the prisoner was spared.

On this sort of approach you are not going to have a PC fall unless that is what the player wants, but it doesn't follow that the fall has to be scripted (and hence non-dramatic). There is no reason why it couldn't be very spontaneous, just as the outcomes in the two examples I just gave were spontaneous.

Do we poison the duke to end a battle before it starts or do we meet them honourably on the field? Do I grant mercy to my enemy knowing he might go on to do evil again or do I take it upon myself to be judge, jury, and executioner*? You can't give these decisions any weight in a descriptive system because the players is never in any danger of losing anything from acting out of alignment.
These decisions have weight because of the values at stake. You can't both honour your promise to spare the prisoner, and execute her. You can't both honour your pledge to fight the duke honourably, and poison him. These are questions of value, not of expedience.

A view that I hold very strongly is that the game should be fun and interesting to play whatever choices the players make in the course of playing their PCs. Hence whether a player choose to have his/her player act expediently, or not, the game should be fun. Hence, from the player's point of view, there is nothing expedient about having his/her PC act expediently. (The 4e DMG 2 makes a point in a similar vein when it notes that, on p 87, that although the PCs "probably don't like being attacked by drow assassins in the middle of the night, but the players will probably have fun playing out the encounter.")

This is why I think that the meaningful choices for players are generally choices about value (including "Do I want to play a PC who sacrifices value to expedience?") rather than literal instances of temptation of the sort that they might experience if actually, in the real world, asked to weigh up adherence to values against acting expediently.
 
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The problem that alignment mechanics pose for playing a paladin, on this approach, is that they put the GM in charge of deciding what is Good. So the player of the paladin can't know what his/her PC has a reason to do until s/he asks the GM what would count as Good or Evil in a particular situation. Hence putting the GM in ultimate control of the PC's actions.

False.

Simply knowing what counts as good or evil within a certain reality does not reduce the beings within it to mere GM puppets. The player is still free to choose the actions of his PC, he merely knows the consequences for acting one way or another.
 

False.

Simply knowing what counts as good or evil within a certain reality does not reduce the beings within it to mere GM puppets. The player is still free to choose the actions of his PC, he merely knows the consequences for acting one way or another.

But the consequence of doing something that the DM views as evil, regardless of my views, is I will lose my character.

IME players will far more often simply accept the DM's wishes and bow to them rather than losing their character.

This is an extremely strong pressure to put on the player. Do what I say or lose your character isn't a choice in my view.
 

Simply knowing what counts as good or evil within a certain reality does not reduce the beings within it to mere GM puppets. The player is still free to choose the actions of his PC, he merely knows the consequences for acting one way or another.
You are ignoring my other premise:

An alternative approach to understanding alignment is my default understanding.

<snip>

On this approach, it is taken for granted that there is always a reason to be Good rather than Evil, and hence that the Evil are doing the wrong thing.
If a player accepts as a premise for the play of his/her character that there is always a reason to be Good rather than Evil; and if it is true that only the GM can determine what counts as Good or Evil; then the player is dependent upon the GM to know what actions his/her PC has a reason to perform.

You may think that there are few players for whom my premise is true. Perhaps there are. But in that case I think my other reason is in play: that the cosmological framework leaves it open whether or not it is right to do Good, which - while perhaps perfectly sensible for an REH-ish world - rules out the paladin archetype ab initio.
 

I know. N'raac did. Did I out your name in there somewhere? If I did, sorry. Stupid autocorrect.

Twice.


"Quote Originally Posted by Nagol"

and

"The only thing I've recalled you doing in this thread Nagol is repeatedly telling anyone who disagrees with you is that they're just doing it wrong, and if we were just better gamers, we'd be able to appreciate the beauty of alignment."

Please fix the it.
 

But the consequence of doing something that the DM views as evil, regardless of my views, is I will lose my character.

And? Did you not have the conversation with the GM, to see if what the GM viewed as evil was going to be suitable for your play?

If not, well, that's your problem. Has nothing to do with alignment. It has to do with a mismatched set of expectations as to what you, as a player, are entitled to at the table. If you did, and you didn't like the answer, why on this green Earth did you choose to play a paladin?

In either case, there is only so far we can go to save you from yourself.

IME players will far more often simply accept the DM's wishes and bow to them rather than losing their character.

And? You say this as if it is a problem. As if, in a cooperative play environment, it isn't known that folks occasionally need to compromise?

Do what I say or lose your character isn't a choice in my view.

That's a fine argument for you, Hussar, to not play in certain types of games.
 

Umm, did you miss the part where I said the DM was perfectly reasonable?

You say the GM is perfectly reasonable. Then you tell us he will destroy your character if you don’t play in the precise manner he wishes, and make the game completely no fun for you. To me, the latter is possible only if the former is true.

Btw, I second Nagol’s request that you edit your post for proper attribution. He doesn’t want to be credited with my statements.

I'm not sure how you missed it since you went back and quoted it again, so, I'm not really sure where the "great umbrage" and whatnot is coming from.

The entire tone of your recent posts suggests your great dislike for anyone else being able to judge your character’s adherence to his moral standards.

These "actual standards" that you talk about. Are they only possible if they come from the DM? Can the players not have actual standards? Are "actual standards" only valid if they originate from the DM and/or have the DM's seal of approval?

They must be standards beyond “whatever I say is in compliance with my character’s moral code, it is, even if it contradicts established standards of the setting, his deity, his religion or my prior statements about his code.” For a consistent world, someone has to make the ultimate decision. That is part of the GM’s role. A Paragon of Virtue must live up to virtuous ideals that he does not unilaterally set.

Now, as to the second point, yup, got no problems with adhering to a code. That's what being a paladin is all about.

So what is that code? “Whatever I decide is appropriate fits with the code and none may question me” does not cut it in my books.

As to the last two ad hominem attacks, well, that's enough of that don't you think? If that's what you're taking from me saying that it's perfectly reasonable for the DM to interpret alignment, then, well, I don't know what more I can say.

I set out what I see and I stand by it. You have basically stated “If the players can’t kill prisoners at their discretion, with no repercussions, then they will never take prisoners”. That, to me, screams that role playing cannot be required to trump tactical expediency.

You have asked why the GM is the only person who can approve adherence to a code. I have seen no suggestion in your posts that anyone but the specific player should have any say in the adjudication of the Code. So, for your PC, it seems clear that you must be the sole adjudicator and no one else can have any influence on the standards of Good and Righteousness that your character subscribes to.

Just because I play differently than you do, doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Just that I play differently than you do. I've posted numerous examples of where alignment gets in the way of play. Where alignment is detrimental for my play experience.

All of which lead to my summary conclusions. I also note that you are implying here that a game where tactical expediency trumps role playing, or where the player is the sole arbiter of his character’s adherence to his standards, is “wrong”.

Second, Hussar didn't talk about killing prisoners on a whim. He talked about killing the prisoners by way of doing justice upon them.

He clearly stated that the first time the players are told they do not have carte blanche to kill off prisoners at their discretion without negative repercussions will be the last time anyone in that game ever takes a prisoner.

Third, the category of Good/Evil seems to me absolutely relevant here. The d20 SRD says that "Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit." If executing the prisoners is debasing innocent life, then it is evil. If it is a proper response to the harm they have inflicted upon other innocents, then it may be Good and certainly is not Evil. Hence the moral status of the prisoner - as innocent or not - and the retribution to which this justly exposes them, absolutely is at play in the scenario Hussar has described.

Therein lies the debate – balancing the rights of victims (including surviving friends/loved ones) to revenge, and of potential future victims to greater protection override the rights of the criminal to life, freedom, etc., and to what extent? Good motivations exist on both sides. What if we decide we also want the criminal to die a slow, agonizing death as an example to others, and for the protection of future victims. Have we crossed a line there? Or has the criminal forfeited all rights to dignity as a person?

I personally think play is more interesting if the players are able to meaningfully debate whether retributive killing is good or evil, without the gamerules or the GM's application of the gamerules already deciding the matter. (And this is a case in which saying "it is all a dispute within the boundaries of good" won't work. Those who oppose capital punishment typically oppose it on the grounds that it is a great evil.)

Supporters of capital punishment believe protection of the innocent outweighs the criminal’s right to life, and that capital punishment itself is undertaken for Good purposes. Therein lies the moral debate. Whether the Paladin executing the prisoner is undertaking an Evil act is very questionable. However, if he lacks authority to judge, sentence and carry out sentence on the criminal, then lynching the criminal is most definitely a non-lawful act.

Hence my position that good/evil has shades of grey and law/chaos is the clearer axis rebutting the appropriateness of the Paladin’s actions, presuming he lacks that authority in the game setting.

Fourth and finally, in the real world there is a big difference between killing in combat, which is typically a species of defensive violence, and executing someone in the name of justice, which typically has a quasi-ritual element and aims at declaring and enforcing norms of just punishment. This difference has played an important role from time-to-time in my RPGing, and I don't see why the same difference couldn't make an RPG more interesting for others. Including, perhaps, Hussar.

Certainly could, and given the violence expected of all characters in game, Good included, there is no reason the characters should not be able to play such a debate out. In my view, a GM who simply declares “Nope – killing prisoner is always Evil” is not a “reasonable GM”. But the player who decides his Paladin is a paragon of all that is Lawful and Good by leading lynch mobs also lacks my sympathy.


But the consequence of doing something that the DM views as evil, regardless of my views, is I will lose my character.

It seems like the consequence is that your character will lose certain powers, and perhaps status, within the campaign. If the GM wants you to lose your character, that can easily be achieved without alignment rules.

And? Did you not have the conversation with the GM, to see if what the GM viewed as evil was going to be suitable for your play?

If not, well, that's your problem. Has nothing to do with alignment. It has to do with a mismatched set of expectations as to what you, as a player, are entitled to at the table. If you did, and you didn't like the answer, why on this green Earth did you choose to play a paladin?

In either case, there is only so far we can go to save you from yourself.

And? You say this as if it is a problem. As if, in a cooperative play environment, it isn't known that folks occasionally need to compromise?

Quoted for truth. What I see from this thread, and several others, is a “my way or the highway” attitude. Should you get a say in the interpretation of alignment, moral code, etc., especially for your character? Absolutely. But everyone around the table is also entitled to their say. And if the opinions conflict, as they often will, then a decision must be made. The ultimate arbiter is the GM. “In my campaign, execution of helpless prisoners is always Evil” may not be the choice I would make, or even prefer, but ultimately, if that is the way things work in this campaign, then it is the way things work. As a dedicated champion of Good and Righteousness, my character will work to bring his opponents back alive to face justice (much like modern day law enforcement is expected to do). If I cannot live with that campaign tone, I can play someone not dependent on standards of Good, or I can find a game that better suits me.
 

And? Did you not have the conversation with the GM, to see if what the GM viewed as evil was going to be suitable for your play?

If not, well, that's your problem. Has nothing to do with alignment. It has to do with a mismatched set of expectations as to what you, as a player, are entitled to at the table. If you did, and you didn't like the answer, why on this green Earth did you choose to play a paladin?

I'd personally argue that, in practice, it does have a lot to do with alignment.

Alignment being part of the rules, as opposed to merely an RP thing opens up the situation to occur. Had it happened in another game, it'd be a difference of opinion, and up to the player to RP the consequences or the like (and the DM via NPCs and so on). As it's actually a matter of "Not LG = lose your powers", in the rules then the issue of who is right is far more important, and despite your "compromise" argument, there is no room for compromise on the player's part, only the DM - either the DM doesn't compromise, and makes the player lose his powers, or the DM compromises on the definition of LG.

Further, the actuality of how alignment is described in many editions, which is to say, inconsistently, vaguely and highly subjectively, and differently in different places (2E Paladin's handbook has a rather different take on LG than many other 2E sources, fr'ex) can lead to two people playing the same game quite reasonably having wildly different views on what is LG, and I do mean wildly.

So alignment does matter in two real ways:

1) It's integrated into the rules, allowing the situation to occur at all (it couldn't occur otherwise).

and

2) It's extremely inconsistently described and the interpretation very subjective in 1E/2E/3E (and to a lesser extent 4E), meaning that disagreements are far more likely than they would be in a game which was less vague and inconsistent in it's morality (Vampire, for example, is far less vague in Humanity and Paths - perhaps just as problematic in some ways, but far less vague).
 

I'd personally argue that, in practice, it does have a lot to do with alignment.

Alignment being part of the rules, as opposed to merely an RP thing opens up the situation to occur. Had it happened in another game, it'd be a difference of opinion, and up to the player to RP the consequences or the like (and the DM via NPCs and so on). As it's actually a matter of "Not LG = lose your powers"...

The issue at hand is having character abilities linked to RP. It will happen in any game in which they are tied together. It can happen frequently, for example, in FATE, where interpretation of character Aspects is required to figure out if they apply in a given situation. In FATE, it can happen for *any and all* characters. For D&D, it only comes up with characters who get powers of alignment or behavior restrictions.

In FATE, they recognize this, and it is put forth that the player and GM should talk about it like mature adults, and negotiate. I fail to see why this cannot be applied to D&D.
 

But the consequence of doing something that the DM views as evil, regardless of my views, is I will lose my character.

You don't "lose" your character- your character will function differently, but you can still play it. Your character gets killed, captured or utterly brainwashed? THEN you lose your character. We're just talking about a change.

Besides, you're playing a Paladin- an archetype that, along with the Cleric and a few others (like Samurais)- are defined by deriving some of their nature/power in the campaign world from being subservient & beholden to the rules of another. There is no guarantee that your will and the will of your boss are going to be congruent 100% of the time.

Where they diverge is a source of tension and drama, and therein could lie a great story.
IME players will far more often simply accept the DM's wishes and bow to them rather than losing their character.
So?

I've lost characters because they got captured and the party couldn't rescue them. I've lost PCs to combats when the party bit off more than they could chew and death resulted. I've lost PCs due to extremely unfortunate rolls of the dice. In each case, leading up to those situations, I made decisions that put my PC in harm's way.

This is no different.

Wait...no it IS- you don't have to roll up a new PC because, in this case, the character is still around.

"It's not heroic!" is a common counter-assertion here.

How is it not? It is the struggle between good & evil internalized. In many stories, that internal struggle lays the groundwork for how heroes rise and fall...and rise again. Or fall forever.

This is an extremely strong pressure to put on the player. Do what I say or lose your character isn't a choice in my view.
This kind of choice happens all the time in rpgs, but most people don't notice because the choice is between entering or avoiding a difficult combat. (See above.)
 

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