D&D 5E 5e Tieflings and Dragonborn

[the Jester]

Halfling

• Gnome

Nope, you lost me there.

Why do people insist on trying to shoehorn these two races together? Ever since that damned 2e brown book.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But tieflings also fail my 'Lynch Test,' which asks, "Would this species realistically not be lynched everywhere they went?" The tiefling works as a populous, true-breeding (more or less) species in Planescape, because part of their charm is that they are the /least weird thing/ about the setting. They are almost /expected/.

But on a prime material world -- particularly a prime material world in the grips of a "points of light" scenario -- they look an awful lot like an advanced possession victim. Keep in mind that the D&D world is /overflowing/ with dangerous humanoids that look substantially less blatantly evil than the tiefling. Why does the tiefling get special dispensation to walk the streets without harrassment?

"No, wait, I'm a tief-urk"

"Hello sir, I'd like to buy a week's worth of iron rat-urk"

"People of Geoff, I have slain the giant king, hey what are you doing with those-urk"

Sure, but so would most races.

Dragonborn definitely would fail that test - even the Metallic Dragons are cantankerous, unreliable beggars, who would not doubt be (mostly accurately given many are CG) accused of stealing sheep and cows and so on, and Chromatic Dragons are pretty much the worst, and much more present on the Prime Material plane than demons, so you, Dragon-monster-man, are obviously going to be "next on the list". So would a wide variety of D&D races. Drow obviously. All humanoids. Most "freak" races. I could go on.

But the thing is, the "lynch test" is a false test, because the D&D world can't possibly work that way, or it would be a horrible ultra-racist racewar stinkhole, where every race murdered every other (if you lynch people for looking scary even though they've just done great good, as you suggest), so we can safely assume that generally, you don't get lynched just for looking scary - people are used to scary-looking-folk. Further, you'd be lynching children - Tieflings don't spring into the world fully-formed - nor do other races, and that's some sick business.

I mean, you reference 2E PS - the main reason that Tieflings don't get murdered isn't just the cosmopolitan nature, it's that they genuinely aren't much more likely to be evil than anyone else. In a world where Tieflings had existed for thousands of years, this would probably be a known thing.

 

[steeldragons]

STANDARD/CORE RACES
Human [standard racial benefits, sub-races with alternate benefits optional]
--Urbane
--Tribal

Elf [racial benefits dependent on sub-race]
--High
--Wood
--Drow [apparently. bleh]

Dwarf [racial benefits dependent on sub-race]
--Hill
--Mountain

Halfling [standard racial benefits, sub-races with alternate benefits optional]
--Hairfoot
--Stout
--Tallfellow

OPTIONAL RACES
Gnome [racial benefits dependent on sub-race]
--Forest
--Rock
[svirfneblin a.k.a. "Deep Gnomes" have no business being a PC race unless the entire campaign is taking place in a setting's underdark/world. They have no desire and/or culture/society to be had on the surface world -much like duerger or drow, though I have additional issues with them.]

Hybrids [racial benefits dependent on sub-race]
--Half-Elf
--Half-Orc
[--Half-Ogre, too, if I were calling the shots]

Dragonborn [racial benefits dependent on sub-race] (Since they are going to be there. again blech.)
--Metallic, the race born of dragons (or created by their gods or whatever) that has a society/culture and perpetuates itself (4e style, I guess).
--Chromatic, the creatures caused by curse or specifically "blessed" or otherwise bred in some deliberate fashion as servants/soldiers/etc... (kinda shades of old school "abishai" [sp?]).
--Half-dragon: the dragon-blooded/"-born" individuals bred with a non-dragon race. Not a "Hybrid" race as those are "Human + Other." Half-dragons are "Dragon + Other."

I totally agree with those who think if you're presenting a playable as PCs "lower-planes" race...and likely will include elemental-plane races ("inner-planes" if you want to count shadow plane folks) at some later period, there is no defensible reason not to have a PC "upper planes" race. I would quite agree with "Planetouched" being the Race with "Aasimar/Genasi/Tiefling" -or even just "Upper/Elemental/Lower Plane" being the sub-race options. HOWever, since we know that Tieflings are going to be included out the gate and Aasimar/Genasi/other "Planetouched" are not, then they have to be considered in the same "Race/sub-races" structure as everyone else. So...

Tiefling [racial benefits dependent on sub-race]
--Infernal, 4e style "race".
--Fiendish (i.e. any "lower plane" critter blood), Planescape style "individuals".

 

[DMZ2112]

Dragonborn definitely would fail that test - even the Metallic Dragons are cantankerous, unreliable beggars, who would not doubt be (mostly accurately given many are CG) accused of stealing sheep and cows and so on, and Chromatic Dragons are pretty much the worst, and much more present on the Prime Material plane than demons, so you, Dragon-monster-man, are obviously going to be "next on the list".

I admit the strength of this argument, but for my part, at least, I think devils and chromatic dragons function differently within the fiction. If little Jenny down the street grows red scales and starts breathing fire that's something to fear but it just doesn't have the same feeling of risk to the community that it would if she grew horns and a forked tail and smelled of sulfur. Dragonborn Jenny gets a muzzle. Tiefling Jenny gets her whole family tossed into the lake, set on fire, and crushed by stones.

So would a wide variety of D&D races. Drow obviously. All humanoids. Most "freak" races. I could go on.

Yes?

But the thing is, the "lynch test" is a false test, because the D&D world can't possibly work that way, or it would be a horrible ultra-racist racewar stinkhole,

Wow, really? I absolutelythink the D&D universe is a horrible ultra-racist racewar stinkhole. That's why I specified this point:

Keep in mind that the D&D world is /overflowing/ with dangerous humanoids that look substantially less blatantly evil than the tiefling. Why does the tiefling get special dispensation to walk the streets without harrassment?

I admit that D&D is generally viewed through inch-thick rose-colored welder's goggles, but it (and arguably most fantasy fiction) is founded on the principle of killing the other guy because he looks different and his traditions are alien. It's not /exactly/ every species for itself, but the only substantial alliance between species is the elf-human-dwarf axis. They kill orcs, orcs kill goblins, goblins kill kobolds, kobolds kill elves-humans-dwarves. And that's just the mammals.

(Well, the mammals plus kobolds, who were mammalian in D&D for slightly longer than they have been draconic.)

we can safely assume that generally, you don't get lynched just for looking scary

We can?

people are used to scary-looking-folk.

They are?!

Further, you'd be lynching children - Tieflings don't spring into the world fully-formed - nor do other races, and that's some sick business.

Sick business that has been a part of D&D at least as far back as Keep on the Borderlands.

I mean, you reference 2E PS - the main reason that Tieflings don't get murdered isn't just the cosmopolitan nature, it's that they genuinely aren't much more likely to be evil than anyone else.

I have to disagree. I mean, if people in Planescape were killed for the likelihood that they are evil you wouldn't have fiends walking around in Sigil. Or, for that matter, a number of the factions running things in Sigil. Tieflings are spared in large part because of the cosmopolitan nature of the city. Evil is tolerated in Sigil, so long as it wipes its feet.

...That said, given the choice between an aasimar suspect and a tiefling suspect my Harmonium hauls the tiefling downtown every time.

In a world where Tieflings had existed for thousands of years, this would probably be a known thing.

Well, much like tieflings do not spring fully formed into the world, their communities do not come into being as millennia-old civilizations. Bael Turath falls, every living survivor now looks like a devil -- those poor bastards don't /get/ a thousand years to ingratiate themselves into society. I give them a few months to a year, tops, before the Church of Pholtus introduces the last of them to cleansing flame.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Y'know, different games and tables and settings have different tones they're looking for and different races they like and don't like.

Which is why I'm glad these are all in the PHB, and not in the core rules - if you want to be a dragonborn OR a tiefling OR a gnome OR whatever, you're going to have to be playing under a DM who has turned that option on. It's off by default.

 

[Gilladian]

All I can say is that I have no interest in adding dragonborn, tieflings (or warforged, or gnomes for that matter) into my campaign world. So I simply hope they're clearly indicated as "only existing when the DM indicates they do".

 

[shadow]

I hope that 5e art makes the Dragonborn actually look like, you know, dragons. With the lack of wings and horns, I honestly felt that the the 4e art made Dragonborn look like Yuan-ti or perhaps Lizardfolk.

 

[Evenglare]

Because that's the reality. People like to play "bad race gone good" a great deal. People don't like to play "goody two-shoes is naturally good!" very much.

You're putting dogma ahead of real preferences, I would suggest.

Faulty logic, or at the very least very sloppy game development. First, every person that I have met would much rather play an aasimar than a tiefling. I know everyone keeps telling me that people like to play tieflings, and even if there ARE, the fact that so many people ALSO like to play Aasimar. Why exclude those people. Seems presumptuous to me. Second it makes no sense that they stress good aligned campaigns, heroic characters all of this good focused stuff and then NO AASIMAR!? I mean.. wtf. In almost every edition we are always pushed towards good aligned campaigns, and then some sort of supplement comes out for playing evil campaigns etc etc.

If this is true, I really wish wizards would stop presuming what it's audience likes and give us a wide variety of options. So far in 5e it sounds like they are trying to do this but looking at 4th edition and their focus... it's not a great track record.

 

[GX.Sigma]

But the thing is, the "lynch test" is a false test, because the D&D world can't possibly work that way, or it would be a horrible ultra-racist racewar stinkhole, where every race murdered every other

Are you trying to say the D&D world isn't like that?

 

[I'm A Banana]

All I can say is that I have no interest in adding dragonborn, tieflings (or warforged, or gnomes for that matter) into my campaign world. So I simply hope they're clearly indicated as "only existing when the DM indicates they do".

I think this will be the case. The Basic rules published for free on the website will be where they're directing people who just want to play the game. Everything else -- dragonborn, paladins, tieflings, bards -- is an option that you can take if it's turned on, but not something that you are expected to have when you just "play D&D."

Those people will have to deal with elves and dwarves and halflings and wizards and clerics and rogues and fighters, but that's probably acceptable for D&D, and presumably something you can change.