D&D 5E My New Players Have Quit 5th Edition


log in or register to remove this ad

In a real ambush, not every soldier is surprised. Who is surprised should be determined by a normal initiative roll.

I would disagree with this to a certain extent...but then we would be dueling anecdotes and RL exp...and that never gets anyone anywhere.


I can see your viewpoint, I believe you are saying that using initiative would show who reacts in time to get some actions before the surprise ambushers take them out.

And I see some ambush situations as "oh crap" and all the attackers get an action first...not saying this kills all the surprised folks, just that a proper ambush....all the ambushers would get an action first "IF" no one saw them coming.

I could play either way...thanks for the discussion.
 

The Surprise Round is just unrealistic and frustrating. It either hurts the party or it makes the monsters in my encounter too easy to eliminate.

I will just make the party and monsters roll for initiative order and skip the surprise round. Not everyone is surprised during an ambush.

I will keep trying to promote 5E but I'm going to be using the Variant Rules whatever they are. And if not, I'll make a House Rule. No surprise round.

If you want to do this, I suggest you still find a way to give stealth characters some kind of advantage..

maybe if attacking from stealth you get to add you proficiency bonus?

so an ambush would still be worth a damn, because you get a higher chance (not guaranteed) to go first... your targets still get an action mind you, but you get a nice bonus to your Initiative roll.
 

The Surprise Round is just unrealistic and frustrating. It either hurts the party or it makes the monsters in my encounter too easy to eliminate.
It's not terribly different from surprise in other editions, it's just that 5e really went for 'faster combats' ('slow combats' being one of the edition-war criticisms of 4e that actually had some basis in fact), and did so in a number of ways. It greatly reduced the choices faced by some classes in combat, removed the 'minor' action, consolidated all off-turn actions into a 1/round reaction action, translated the 1/round-limit 'free' action attack into the bonus action, increased the expected hit %, &c. Most significantly, it reduced hps for both monsters and PCs so combats would simply last fewer rounds - which means that if surprise exists, it becomes a larger proportion of the round, and thus carries more weight. At very low level, combats can very easily include character deaths in a single round - and that could be the surprise round.

The best advice remains to simply eschew 'Apprentice Tier' and start games at 3rd, which, as the beginning of the next tier, is prettymuch what 1st represented in prior eds (3e for instance, IIRC, had optional 0 and -1 levels below first, albeit, mostly so characters could be multiclassed at 1st. In 1e, fighter's started as 'Veterans.' &c)
 
Last edited:

If you want to do this, I suggest you still find a way to give stealth characters some kind of advantage..

maybe if attacking from stealth you get to add you proficiency bonus?

so an ambush would still be worth a damn, because you get a higher chance (not guaranteed) to go first... your targets still get an action mind you, but you get a nice bonus to your Initiative roll.

Yes. I am working stealth and hiding rules into the first round.
 

I read that and giggled. What are the PCs supposed to buy new equipment WITH? :lol:
Yep, I'd been wondering the same thing.

That said, an escape scenario could shape up much like the old A4 module, where the party start with nothing and have to scrounge up gear as they go along.

Tony Vargas said:
The best advice remains to simply eschew 'Apprentice Tier' and start games at 3rd, which, as the begining of the next tier, is prettymuch what 1st represented in prior eds (3e for instance, IIRC, had optional 0 and -1 levels below first, albeit, mostly so characters could be multiclassed at 1st.)
1st level in 1e was probably deadlier than 1st level in 5e will ever be; at least in 5e you get auto-max h.p. at 1st.

Instead, I think the best advice is to first tell your players up front that sooner or later their characters *will* die, it's part of the game; and then b) if you want to go easier on them for their first adventure, make said adventure a simple mission to map a dungeon complex that's already been cleared out; as a test or initiation for an adventuring society (a Company, the Pathfinders, whatever). Their treasure consists of the bits and pieces left behind and-or missed by the previous adventurers. (and as a nice side effect this sends a clear and early message that the PCs aren't the only adventurers out there, and that there's always a bigger fish)

Lan-"everything dies, baby that's a fact - and everything that dies, someday comes back; Bruce Springsteen"-efan
 

One iteration of the playtest had the surprised receive -20 to initiative. My table (and everyone) thought that was weird. What we did was give the surprisers +20 to their initiative. This means in the first round the surprisers will almost certainly go first, but it is possible for a fast surprised person to still go before a slow surpriser. We liked this aspect.

It also removes the possibility of ambushers getting to go twice before the ambushed.

Thaumaturge.
 

('slow combats' being one of the most-nearly-valid h4ter criticisms of 4e)

One of the hallmarks of an edition warrior is an inability to resist taking jabs.

You see, this thread is about 5e. It isn't really about 4e. There was absolutely no need for this comment, which added nothing of constructive value to the thread, and served only to maintain animosity with others.

Anyone who cannot resist inserting the edition wars where is isn't required is part of the problem. Don't be part of the problem, folks. Practice leaving the war behind.
 

Sadly, the edition war seems to have had a strong influence on the shape of 5e, and I don't think it would be constructive to deny that.

That 5e includes design decisions to favor shorter combats is one of the clearest results of that, and one of the few cases where there was both a clearly-identified problem and a 5e solution (set of solutions, really) that demonstrably worked (in the playtest, at least).

[sblock="combat speed issues"] It's clearly hard to sum up this issue in a quick aside without sounding too much like an edition warrior, so I'll go into it in detail for anyone who cares:

3e, 4e, and 5e have each tried to address complaints about the edition immediately preceding them. In the case of 5e there were complaints that 4e combat was 'too slow.' So, 5e made combats faster in the sense of taking fewer rounds to resolve by lowering monster hps relative to PC damage, making attack rolls succeed more often (and saves fail more often) and reducing options in combat. 4e combat /was/ slower in the sense that the encounter guidelines were centered around larger, more challenging, more involved 'set piece' combats with more tactical options on the player side that took more rounds to resolve. They were also faster in the sense that they were quicker to resolve with fewer rules frustrations and delays than similar combats would have been in prior eds (in which they could be downright problematic, and thus not run that often). A reason for those changes making combat 'slower' was that there had been many complaints that 3e combats were 'static' and lacked meaningful tactical options, and/or devolved into 'rocket tag' in which the side that acted first won in an overwhelming power-combo or SoD or other 'nova' tactic. 3e did end up being 'static' in the sense that the full attack was often the best martial combat option, and precluded movement, and could be deemed 'rocket tag' as there were plenty of ways for a caster to generate untouchable save DCs. Yet, in another sense, 3e /did/ provide many tactical options for both melee types and casters, it's just that, eventually, players found that certain of them (particularly the full attack) were clearly the 'best' options. 3e, of course, had full attacks and complex tactical options (that could be onerous to run through or that proved ineffective or too effective) and boost-able save DCs because complaints had long been made about AD&D that melee types lacked options, that multiple attacks (from Specialization, level & TWFing) were 'broken' and that saves were too easy at high level, making "save: neg" spells virtually useless at those levels.

So, each edition, the game tries to address complaints about the prior edition, only to have new complaints heaped upon it (or even old ones re-hashed). In some cases, WotC so much as openly identifying the complaint that a mechanical change addressed led to push-back and complaints from outraged fans. [/sblock]

Given that there was strong demand for faster combat with some basis in fact, in part fueling the edition war (which, hopefully, we don't want to repeat), and that 5e made changes that delivered faster combats, those changes /need/ to be understood in that context and *cut some serious slack.*

That could very well include putting up with a few character deaths at 1st level (or just starting at 3rd, which is a very effective, and IMHO, perfectly reasonable solution that the OP dismissed out of hand). And it's obvious how shorter combats (in rounds) could increase the importance/impact of surprise rounds. So even if the OP doesn't want high-impact surprise rounds, he should consider the context that has led to them.
 
Last edited:

1st level in 1e was probably deadlier than 1st level in 5e will ever be; at least in 5e you get auto-max h.p. at 1st.
Played straight, sure. But auto-max hps were a common variant in 1e days, IIRC, they even made it into Len Lakofka's feature in The Dragon.

Instead, I think the best advice is to first tell your players up front that sooner or later their characters *will* die, it's part of the game
Long-time players will already have the expectation, but 'newer' (from the last 14ys) ones might benefit from such a conversation - and you might very well want to adjust the game to meet /their/ expectations, which are no less valid for being formed in the last 14 years of the game's history rather than the first 14 years.

An easy way to do that is simply skipping the two meant-to-go-quickly-anyway levels of the apprentice tier.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top