D&D 5E Player's Handbook Alpha *Spoilers*
- Thread starter gyor
- Start date
Animal Companions have out of combat uses.
And if you have two targets side by side the Panther can technically pounce on both, knocking them both down.
It also doesn't take into account the possiblity of you or other players casting buffs onto the Panther, a Paladin with Crusader's Mantle up with add 1d8 radiant damage to the Panthers attacks.
Anyways the Beast Master is not a bad choice, they're both good and interesting, if one is slightly better then the other who cares as long as thier fun.
And if you have two targets side by side the Panther can technically pounce on both, knocking them both down.
It also doesn't take into account the possiblity of you or other players casting buffs onto the Panther, a Paladin with Crusader's Mantle up with add 1d8 radiant damage to the Panthers attacks.
Anyways the Beast Master is not a bad choice, they're both good and interesting, if one is slightly better then the other who cares as long as thier fun.
Branduil
Hero
Here's a comparison of different Ranger builds based on what we know so far. For simplicity's sake I'm assuming Colossus Slayer and the Mastiff's Harry can be used each turn; Horde Breaker and Panther's Pounce can be used half of the time; Volley and Whirlwind Attack can be used a fourth of the time(assuming three enemies each time); and I'm not even going to analyze a Giant Killer build because that's just too variable.
Archery Hunter Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+11 to longbow attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic, +2 Archery)
1d8+5 damage(+1d6 Colossus Slayer)
Volley
On turns without Volley:
vs. AC 20
14.03 DPR
vs. AC 16
19.22 DPR
On turns with Volley:
vs. AC 20
20.05 DPR
vs. AC 16
26.46 DPR
Totals:
vs. AC 20
15.53 DPR
vs. AC 16
20.53 DPR
TWF Hunter Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
Horde Breaker
Whirlwind Attack
On turns with normal attacks:
vs. AC 20
13.27 DPR
vs. AC 16
18.37 DPR
On turns with Horde Breaker:
vs. AC 20
17.69 DPR
vs. AC 16
24.49 DPR
On turns with Whirlwind Attack:
vs. AC 20
19.90 DPR
vs. AC 16
27.55 DPR
Totals:
vs. AC 20
16.58 DPR
vs. AC 16
22.96 DPR
TWF Beast Master(Hawk) Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
On turns using two Talons attacks:
vs. AC 20
16.70 DPR
vs. AC 16
23.90
TWF Beast Master(Panther) Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
On turns using two Claw attacks:
vs. AC 20
16.79 DPR
vs. AC 16
23.99 DPR
On turns using Pounce attack and Claw attack:
vs. AC 20
18.1 DPR
vs. AC 16
26.68 DPR
Totals:
vs. AC 20
17.44 DPR
vs. AC 16
25.33 DPR
TWF Beast Master(Mastiff) Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
On turns with Bite and Harry attack:
vs. AC 20
25.91 DPR
vs. AC 16
31.8 DPR
Okay, I take back what I said about Beast Master Rangers; they can hold their own damage-wise. They don't have the survivability of Hunter Rangers(a well-placed enemy Fireball will ruin a BM Ranger's day in a hurry), but they are viable PCs.
I would actually go so far as to say the Mastiff's Harry attack is obviously broken:
-it automatically works for any enemy within 5 feet of the Mastiff.
-grants advantage and 2d6+prof bonus damage.
Archery Hunter Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+11 to longbow attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic, +2 Archery)
1d8+5 damage(+1d6 Colossus Slayer)
Volley
On turns without Volley:
vs. AC 20
14.03 DPR
vs. AC 16
19.22 DPR
On turns with Volley:
vs. AC 20
20.05 DPR
vs. AC 16
26.46 DPR
Totals:
vs. AC 20
15.53 DPR
vs. AC 16
20.53 DPR
TWF Hunter Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
Horde Breaker
Whirlwind Attack
On turns with normal attacks:
vs. AC 20
13.27 DPR
vs. AC 16
18.37 DPR
On turns with Horde Breaker:
vs. AC 20
17.69 DPR
vs. AC 16
24.49 DPR
On turns with Whirlwind Attack:
vs. AC 20
19.90 DPR
vs. AC 16
27.55 DPR
Totals:
vs. AC 20
16.58 DPR
vs. AC 16
22.96 DPR
TWF Beast Master(Hawk) Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
On turns using two Talons attacks:
vs. AC 20
16.70 DPR
vs. AC 16
23.90
TWF Beast Master(Panther) Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
On turns using two Claw attacks:
vs. AC 20
16.79 DPR
vs. AC 16
23.99 DPR
On turns using Pounce attack and Claw attack:
vs. AC 20
18.1 DPR
vs. AC 16
26.68 DPR
Totals:
vs. AC 20
17.44 DPR
vs. AC 16
25.33 DPR
TWF Beast Master(Mastiff) Ranger lvl 11
Dex 18
+9 to dual scimitar attacks(+4 Dex, +4 prof, +1 magic)
1d6+5 damage each
On turns with Bite and Harry attack:
vs. AC 20
25.91 DPR
vs. AC 16
31.8 DPR
Okay, I take back what I said about Beast Master Rangers; they can hold their own damage-wise. They don't have the survivability of Hunter Rangers(a well-placed enemy Fireball will ruin a BM Ranger's day in a hurry), but they are viable PCs.
I would actually go so far as to say the Mastiff's Harry attack is obviously broken:
-it automatically works for any enemy within 5 feet of the Mastiff.
-grants advantage and 2d6+prof bonus damage.
I'm making 2 assumptions which you aren't.
First I'm assuming an AC well below 20. My impression has been that even at lvl 11 AC 20 would be very rare (or possibly even non-existent) even among very tough enemies. A more realistic AC would definitely favor the beast ranger more.
My second assumption is more questionable, which is that at lvl 11, or shortly after lvl 11, rangers get a 3rd attack. I base this off of the alpha book appearing to have just left out mention of 3rd attacks for all classes (though maybe I missed them), and the fact that the ranger appears to have the same attack progression as the fighter, who gets a 3rd attack at lvl 11 in basic. If this is not the case, then volley becomes comparably much better and the beast master ranger worse.
Branduil's math shows that against an extremely high ac enemy and with only 2 attacks (a worst case scenario) the beast hunter does still hold his own quite well, though he has to use a hound rather than a panther if he want maximum damage (though he loses party utility in doing so).
On a completely different note, it is kind of weird that volley has such a bigger AoE spread than whirlwind attack. Whirlwind attack will rarely be worth using rather then just attacking but volley has much more potential.
First I'm assuming an AC well below 20. My impression has been that even at lvl 11 AC 20 would be very rare (or possibly even non-existent) even among very tough enemies. A more realistic AC would definitely favor the beast ranger more.
My second assumption is more questionable, which is that at lvl 11, or shortly after lvl 11, rangers get a 3rd attack. I base this off of the alpha book appearing to have just left out mention of 3rd attacks for all classes (though maybe I missed them), and the fact that the ranger appears to have the same attack progression as the fighter, who gets a 3rd attack at lvl 11 in basic. If this is not the case, then volley becomes comparably much better and the beast master ranger worse.
Branduil's math shows that against an extremely high ac enemy and with only 2 attacks (a worst case scenario) the beast hunter does still hold his own quite well, though he has to use a hound rather than a panther if he want maximum damage (though he loses party utility in doing so).
On a completely different note, it is kind of weird that volley has such a bigger AoE spread than whirlwind attack. Whirlwind attack will rarely be worth using rather then just attacking but volley has much more potential.
Can you show me some math to back this assertion up? I mean, I admit I may be being dumb and missing something!
It looks like you have to be 11th level to do that, drop one of your two attacks, which are likely Prof+(STR or DEX)+Magic bonus to hit and 1d8 or higher +Prof+(STR or DEX)+Magic bonus to damage, let's lowball and say 18 stat, +1 1d8 magic weapon. So +9 to hit, 1d8+9 damage.
Panther is +7 to hit, 1d6+4 damage, causes KD, then +7 to hit, 1d6+6 damage. Let's assume AC20 for a tough single target enemy.
No-feature Ranger is thus 50% chance to hit each w/two attacks averaging 4.5+9 damage, so 13.5 DPR
Beastie is 50% chance with one, so 6.75 + 40% chance of 3.5+4 = 3 + 40% chance of 3.5+6 = 3.8 so DPR = 13.55!
0.05 gain in DPR for Beastie, w/a 40% chance of KD.
However in any situation where Volley applies, a Hunter is waaaay ahead. Also if any of his other features apply (i.e. 1d6 to damaged targets, double prof to hit large, etc.)...
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Harry gets even better if someone with greatweapon fighting gets the bonus damage, because they reroll a 1 or 2.
(PS this is why Paladins with Great Weapon Fighting style are brutal, they going at adding dice to thier weapon attacks all of which benifit from GWFS)
picture a Paladin with hitting an enemy with a great sword for 2D6 + 1D8 + 2D4 + 1D8 + Strength Mod x 2.
That's 2D6 for the greatsword, 1D8 Improved Smite, 2D4 elemental weapon, 1D8 for Divine Favour, and Strength Mod, with 2 attacks. And then add in say a 5th level smite too. And reroll 1 and 2s on all of it.
(PS this is why Paladins with Great Weapon Fighting style are brutal, they going at adding dice to thier weapon attacks all of which benifit from GWFS)
picture a Paladin with hitting an enemy with a great sword for 2D6 + 1D8 + 2D4 + 1D8 + Strength Mod x 2.
That's 2D6 for the greatsword, 1D8 Improved Smite, 2D4 elemental weapon, 1D8 for Divine Favour, and Strength Mod, with 2 attacks. And then add in say a 5th level smite too. And reroll 1 and 2s on all of it.
The only issue is that as a Great Sword is two handed, technically you cannot cast Somantic spells in combat. Its not a huge issue (and there may be a work around) but its something to be aware of when making your spell selection.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Fair enough.
Why do you think Rangers get a 3rd attack? They didn't get this in the October Playtest, nor did anyone but the Fighter, and they don't have it now. It's not so much "questionable" but assuming a complete design reversal, neh?Indeed.
I will agree with you, Branduil etc. that Beast Master isn't actually a trap, though, after looking at the math.
(I have to say I hate the fairly complex action-economy the BM introduces, though, I thought we were ditching that kind of thing?)
[MENTION=7175]jadrax[/MENTION] - You can hold (but not attack with) a GS in one hand, so that's only a problem for Somatic spells cast as a Bonus action when you're attacking with the main action.
Pickles JG
First Post
They get an extra attack like ability at 11 - either the 2 for one beast attack or the multi-attacks.
If they did not have this complex action economy but had a simple one you would be complaining that they got twice as amny actions as other folks & were an NPE creating machine as well as being totally OP.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Exactly, not the literal extra attack FadedC was anticipating.
If they did not have this complex action economy but had a simple one you would be complaining that they got twice as amny actions as other folks & were an NPE creating machine as well as being totally OP.
I know, I know, but it's a chore!
Good point, still I think alot of the spells a Paladin is likely to use in combat don't have a Somantic compentents.
The only Paladin only spell that has a somatic compentent is find steed, which you're rarely cast in combat.
All the Auras, Smites, Cruasader's Mantle are all verbal only. As are few less exclusive spells like command in the case of the Fey Knight Ensnaring Strike. And when it comes to healing/removing debuffs in combat, a Paladin will use his innate powers instead, Lay on Hands and Cleansing. Worse comes to worse, sheath your weapon, cast your spell, then next turn unsheath it. And have a Longstord (verstile) as back up if you think your going to be casting alot of somatic spells in combat.
Looking at Fey Knight, he's going to be nasty against Spellcasters at High Levels, Aura of Warding, Aura of Courage, Aura of Protection, Immune to Disease, Cleansing Touch, and Lay on Hands. Aura of Protection makes it less likely a spell will hit the Fey Knight, he's immune to spells causing disease and fear, Lay on Hands can clear any poison effect including cause fear, and Cleansing Touch and clear any effect caused by a spell from himself or an ally. All Paladin's fet those, but the Fey Knight special trick, Aura of Warding, which grants resistance to spell based damage.
And spells reinforce this, misty step and Tree Stride helps the Fey Knight get to spellcasters, Moonbeam is extra bad for spell casters using polymorph, Ensnaring Strike is a constration nightmare, and the bane of spell casters Enfeeblement, can turn them into drooling idiots permanantly (until dispelled).
