D&D 5E Beyond 20th level - 5Epic?

[Mercurius]

Has Mearls said anything about 5E's epic-equivalent play? (aka "5Epic"). I'm guessing it will be mentioned as a modular option in the DMG and detailed later on, but was wondering if there is any official word.

I'd also love to see them offer a module for 31st level and beyond, aka "Immortal tier" where the PCs can seek true immortality and demigodhood. So the idea being that Epic characters (21-30) are like living legends, but Immortal characters (31-40) are quasi-deities, if not quite immortal than on the way to immortality, with a possible Demigod tier (41-50). But that's getting a bit far afield...

 

[Xantherion]

I sent him a tweet a while back. He said that after the game has been out awhile, they will see how they want to go about it.

He did say there will be a module in the DMG for how to handle levels above 20th level, until they make the decision of a epic level product.

I really hope they do an epic rule-set. I did not like how 3.x did it.

I want to run some potential games like I did back in 1e or 2e, with this ruleset.

 

[Raith5]

I thought 17-20th level was epic. Mind you I would like to see BEM (CI) and 4e style epic somewhere.

On a related note is anything going to come of prestige classes/paragon paths//epic densities in 5e - or have 5e feats essentially taken over?

 

[Xantherion]

We will see were Pit Fiends and Balor's CR is at.

One of the campaigns I ran was the Bloodstone Throne of Orcus module. We did not level characters all the way up, just did some pregen's of 100th level. It was fun going through the Abyss and negotiating or fighting the various Demon Lords and Tiamat. Back in 1e the only difference really between a 20th level character and a 100th was the amount of hit points. I think how this system is set up, it will handle high levels better than the previous 2 editions.

I know it is some nostlagia, and not everyone's cup of tea. I liked having the various Demon, Devil, Daemon, lords as well as some of the other "Epic" planar beings in the monster manuals. We have modrons in the monster manual, bring on Primus.

 

[doctorhook]

Epic/Mythic/Immortal is always a weird beast; it's like overclocking your D&D game. How do you keep things under control well past the point it was designed to handle?

What's the difference between a 20th level wizard and a 30th level one? In 3E it was a +5 bonus to everything and a new system of "supermagic" that was only suitable for away-from-table play. (4E avoided this problem by just building the system to level 30, and calling everything after 20th "epic".)

My opinion is to avoid "more levels past 20" in favour of allowing characters to gain new skills, powers and features from other subclasses. Rather than higher bonuses, I'd much rather have rules for interesting epic-type actions like building kingdoms and empires, developing new world-shattering spells, and ascending to godhood (whether level 20 or not).

 

[Xantherion]

Another one of my favorites was the old Wrath of the immortals set. You basically had a complete rule set to become a god (immortal), after attaining max level in basic D&D.

 

[doctorhook]

We will see were Pit Fiends and Balor's CR is at.

One of the campaigns I ran was the Bloodstone Throne of Orcus module. We did not level characters all the way up, just did some pregen's of 100th level. It was fun going through the Abyss and negotiating or fighting the various Demon Lords and Tiamat. Back in 1e the only difference really between a 20th level character and a 100th was the amount of hit points. I think how this system is set up, it will handle high levels better than the previous 2 editions.

I know it is some nostlagia, and not everyone's cup of tea. I liked having the various Demon, Devil, Daemon, lords as well as some of the other "Epic" planar beings in the monster manuals. We have modrons in the monster manual, bring on Primus.

@surfarcher is busy mathing the hell out of the 5E Starter Set monsters, and his preliminary assessment has led him to believe 20th level PCs in 5E should be able to challenge monsters of CR 25. On this basis, he suggest that we should expect to see creatures at least this power in the Monster Manual.

(Apologies if I've misread or misinterpreted Surf's conclusions. You can see his hard work for yourself at surfarcher.blogspot.com. Check it out!)

 

[Xantherion]

Awesome, i will definitely check that out.

 

[nnms]

The basic PDF mentioned that the ability scores have a hard limit of 30 even for god level beings. So I expect "epic" play will work fine within the existing framework. Another 10 levels for each class and more monsters and spells and things should be good with minimal work.

 

[surfarcher]

@surfarcher is busy mathing the hell out of the 5E Starter Set monsters, and his preliminary assessment has led him to believe 20th level PCs in 5E should be able to challenge monsters of CR 25. On this basis, he suggest that we should expect to see creatures at least this power in the Monster Manual.

(Apologies if I've misread or misinterpreted Surf's conclusions. You can see his hard work for yourself at surfarcher.blogspot.com. Check it out!)

Truename... compelling me... to enter... this... thread....

Definately not disagreeing, just hoping to clarify a little :-D

The data so far suggests to me that we'll see creatures up to at least CR25 in the Monster Manual and so PCs should be able to challenge them, though it may press them sorely. And if I was a betting man I might even put 50gp on seeing a CR30 or two, which I am a whole lot less sure of. Time, and the Monster Manual, will tell.

Think about it. A CR20 should be a reasonable fight for a group of 4 level 20 PCs. And the damage bump PCs get at level 20 isn't dissimilar to those at levels 5, 11 and 17, so the PCs will be fairly strong-for-level at level 20. But what about groups with more than 4 PCs? Or that have some OP items/assistance? D&D has a glorious history of providing way-over-level opponents for the PCs to fight... Just in case.

And that big climactic end-game fight... We'll want to push the PCs during it, right? Hence my prediction.

But it's only a prediction. I could be wrong