D&D 5E Beyond 20th level - 5Epic?

[doctorhook]

I thought 17-20th level was epic. Mind you I would like to see BEM (CI) and 4e style epic somewhere.

On a related note is anything going to come of prestige classes/paragon paths//epic densities in 5e - or have 5e feats essentially taken over?

I really think 17+ (hell, even 15+) could be epic with the right kinds of support.

Regarding PrCs, PPs, EDs, and other character-defining acronyms: I'm not sure, but it certainly looks like feats ate them.

Another one of my favorites was the old Wrath of the immortals set. You basically had a complete rule set to become a god (immortal), after attaining max level in basic D&D.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

The basic PDF mentioned that the ability scores have a hard limit of 30 even for god level beings. So I expect "epic" play will work fine within the existing framework. Another 10 levels for each class and more monsters and spells and things should be good with minimal work.

I like the god-limit. Deities should be allowed something like up to 26 strength, unless their domain is strength, in which case they should be allowed up to 30, for example.

As for adding 10 more levels to D&D: sure it might work, but why? I'm not convinced that adding numbers to the level-counter contributes anything interesting to the game, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions on it. As mentioned upthread, I'd prefer epic to be about rules that allow new features and epic-actions that empower characters without simply ramping up their stats.

 

[doctorhook]

Truename... compelling me... to enter... this... thread....

Huh. I always wondered how that kind of magic worked.

*snipped awesome*

But it's only a prediction. I could be wrong

Except for the folks with inside info, your guess is still probably better than that of us who speculate from rumours instead of data.

 

[surfarcher]

Huh. I always wondered how that kind of magic worked.

And now you have worked it out... Dammit! ;-)

Except for the folks with inside info, your guess is still probably better than that of us who speculate from rumours instead of data.

Well I guess I embarked on this whole thing so I could develop some kind of understanding based on data. And I staretd sharing it in the hope others could benefit from it. It's changed a bit over time... Hopefully to be more immediately useful to folks.

Looking forward to seeing the DMG A little birdie tells me it will have official monster building guidelines

 

[nnms]

I like the god-limit. Deities should be allowed something like up to 26 strength, unless their domain is strength, in which case they should be allowed up to 30, for example.

Cool idea.

As for adding 10 more levels to D&D: sure it might work, but why?

I wouldn't do it, but I imagine there are people out there who see leveling up as integral to the D&D experience, even if they're playing at very high power levels.

I'm not convinced that adding numbers to the level-counter contributes anything interesting to the game, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions on it. As mentioned upthread, I'd prefer epic to be about rules that allow new features and epic-actions that empower characters without simply ramping up their stats.

I figured another 10 levels gives those that want it the ability to level up through a series of levels above the norm. And each one could give those epic-actions and features you are talking about.

I'd likely go with a different approach where I redid the monster and npc math to make two categories. Mythic and non-mythic. Where the real threats a group of PCs face are generally the mythic ones with the non-mythic ones doing next to no damage and getting taken out by any successful damaging attack.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I think there should be 10 epic levels later on. (If only because it make converting stuff easier.)

 

[Li Shenron]

I thought 17-20th level was epic.

It definitely is for me, but I think the truth is that some people want an option for not having an upper level bound (like 3e epic rules or BECMI immortal rules).

On a related note is anything going to come of prestige classes/paragon paths//epic densities in 5e - or have 5e feats essentially taken over?

It' yet undefined/undecided as far as we know. They might add some system of prestige classes et simili in the future.

In the meantime, for your own custom material, feats are not the only way to represent previous editions' PrCls and 4e high-level archetypes, and definitely are not always the best way. There is also subclasses, and you can also easily define 3e-type prestige classes for 5e without the 5e books telling you how to do that.

I've written before how the 3 methods all have merits and drawbacks, and I am going to use all of them probably in my 5e conversion of Rokugan. It's just a matter of understanding which suits better each specific character concept, or (if converting) each specific prestige class/paragon path/epic destiny from a previous edition.

For example, I have many 3e books, and if I want to convert a prestige class to 5e, I'm going to take a look at these:

- How many and what are the unique special abilities granted? These are the most important features that define such prestige class! If they are very few, chances are you can stuff them into a single feat, or a 2-3 feats chain.

- Does the prestige class grant progression in a base spellcasting class? Then it is meant as a continuation/extension/specialization of that class, so probably you are best to turn this in a subclass of that class.

- But regarding to the previous point, sometimes it's meant to be applied to both Wizard and Sorcerer, or to both Cleric and Druid, and in some case it might even be suitable to all spellcasters. Then a feat chain or an actual "5e prestige class" will work better.

- Consider also that subclasses always start early, 1-3rd level. That might mean not very "prestigious". Also, someone might have already picked a subclass when it's time in the story to join the prestigious group. In this case, consider allowing the "subclass mixing" option in the DMG.

- Sometimes there is a 3e prestige class that's really 10 levels full of unique benefits, which follow a clear progression. Then a subclass (usually 3-5 levels worth) or a feat chain (4-7 per PC) may not be enough to cover it all, especially if you want to see someone "complete" the prestige class before too high level. Then you really should introduce it as a full-fledged prestige class.

This is all about your own home campaign material, so you don't have to abide to any design rule! For instance, just because 3e prestige classes followed some pattern in requirements and progression, you are free to ignore them and do what serves your game! Also, 5e prestige classes will be EASY to design because you don't have to worry about BAB, ST, and spellcasting progressions.

 

[Nine Hands]

It definitely is for me, but I think the truth is that some people want an option for not having an upper level bound (like 3e epic rules or BECMI immortal rules).

<snip>

This is all about your own home campaign material, so you don't have to abide to any design rule! For instance, just because 3e prestige classes followed some pattern in requirements and progression, you are free to ignore them and do what serves your game! Also, 5e prestige classes will be EASY to design because you don't have to worry about BAB, ST, and spellcasting progressions.

I started building out Prestige Classes as Feats, usually one feat for a Prestige Class. Just consolidating the meat of a class down to two or three abilities was really easy.

 

[Li Shenron]

I started building out Prestige Classes as Feats, usually one feat for a Prestige Class. Just consolidating the meat of a class down to two or three abilities was really easy.

That's good, it also depends how many of the original PrCl features you consider essential to capture the concept, and how many can be removed without problems. Some 3e PrCls were incredibly "empty" of unique features, but others were quite full.

In my case for example, I'm just starting to evaluate 3e Rokugan PrCls from Oriental Adventures, and for example the Unicorn Battle Maiden can easily be condensed to one feat, but others like the Henshin Mystic and Shintao Monk have many abilities and they would better be Monk subclasses (they are both clearly meant to be monks anyway).