D&D 5E A viable game and the vicious edition cycle

[Hussar]

Given the history of TSR, I'd much, MUCH rather have corporate suits in charge of D&D than a "Labour of love" crowd every day of the week. Had TSR actually had some decent business sense back in the day, things would have been much, much different.

Whether there is excessive bloat or not is an eye of the beholder sort of thing.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/newreply.php?p=6348528&noquote=1#ixzz397M9c0x9

When an RPG company has a production rate similar to TSR in the 2e days, I'd say bloat is a pretty easy thing to point to. Pretty hard to avoid.

 

[delericho]

We're talking a lot about a way to make us roleplayers happy first and foremost - but is this necessary? How about a model where D&D is developed as a brand in as many business areas as you can think of - and then some?

That seems to be WotC's current strategy with D&D.

I'm not sure whether the TTRPG is the core of the brand anymore in, say, ten years. But would it really be bad if we let other media do the work and attract some new fans to our hobby - the real D&D?

That's great while things are going well for Hasbro.

Unfortunately, they have a pattern of behaviour when things aren't going so well - they contract their operations, choosing to focus on their "core business". Anything that isn't big enough gets cut.

Now, it's worth noting that that's not an automatic death sentence - last time it happened, the D&D team were able to spin a bright future via DDI to get a stay of execution. And, for the moment at least, Hasbro are happy to consider WotC an atomic unit (meaning D&D gets shielded by the current Magic boom).

But if either one of two things changes (either the Magic boom ends, which it will eventually; or Hasbro decide to consider D&D and Magic separately), there could be problems.

Long story short, I'd much rather see D&D (and indeed the D&D RPG) pulling it's own weight, rather than shield behind Magic or the other elements of the D&D brand. It's just safer that way.

 

[wedgeski]

(and, remember, it was novels and collectible games that killed TSR in the 2e era)

I don't think we have any reliable information that allows you to say that with surety, do we?

The future is always in doubt.

Now there's a quote I can get behind.

Long story short, I'd much rather see D&D (and indeed the D&D RPG) pulling it's own weight, rather than shield behind Magic or the other elements of the D&D brand. It's just safer that way.

Totally agree.

 

[delericho]

I don't think we have any reliable information that allows you to say that with surety, do we?

We actually have quite a lot of information - both Ryan Dancey and Lisa Stevens have written about the topic at some length, and with surprising candour.

But I don't think we can say that any one thing killed TSR - there were an awful lot of things that worked together to destroy that company. Indeed, I don't think it was ever well-run.

It does appear that the last straw was due to the Dragon Dice fad collapsing just after they had hugely invested in stock, coupled with... some issue with the novels (I forget if it was that the distributor went bust, or they had returns of unsold stock, or there was a bill to pay).

That said, that was just the last straw - the thing that took them down to 0 hit points if you will. Had TSR not already been ailing, it's not impossible that it might have survived one or both of these events.

 

[wedgeski]

But I don't think we can say that any one thing killed TSR - there were an awful lot of things that worked together to destroy that company. Indeed, I don't think it was ever well-run.

Yeah I think that's what I was getting at. RD's post-acquisition letter certainly calls out the over-investment in Dragon Dice but the picture he paints is of a company sick on many levels.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Yeah I think that's what I was getting at. RD's post-acquisition letter certainly calls out the over-investment in Dragon Dice but the picture he paints is of a company sick on many levels.

Yes. He writes about boxes upon boxes of never sold D&D material filing a warehouse to the very ceiling. In this time the crash was probably inevitable.

 

[Kinak]

Given the history of TSR, I'd much, MUCH rather have corporate suits in charge of D&D than a "Labour of love" crowd every day of the week. Had TSR actually had some decent business sense back in the day, things would have been much, much different.

Unfortunately, it's not so clear cut as that. It's not as though Gygax was a masterful businessman, but TSR didn't collapse until after a decade of being run by business outsiders.

And most of the terrible decisions we're mocking them for (Dragon Dice, Spellfire, Blood War, the movie rights, the setting explosion, the huge backstock, and not recognizing these problems) were made after Gygax left.

It wasn't a "labor of love" decision to try and jump on the CCG bandwagon. It was a mistake, sure, but not one driven out of love for the hobby.

At the end of the day, managers are just people. Whether they're motivated by love for the game or profit for the shareholders, they're going to make some stupid decisions.

When an RPG company has a production rate similar to TSR in the 2e days, I'd say bloat is a pretty easy thing to point to. Pretty hard to avoid.

I can't speak for everyone, but it was pretty easy for us to avoid "bloat." We just ignored the brown books and never had any problems.

We were too busy spending our allowances on setting books anyway

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Werebat]

Whether there is excessive bloat or not is an eye of the beholder sort of thing.

You mean the movie, the video game, or the "Twilight Zone" episode?

 

[Razuur]

Removed

 

[Tony Vargas]

It does appear that the last straw was due to the Dragon Dice fad collapsing just after they had hugely invested in stock, coupled with... some issue with the novels (I forget if it was that the distributor went bust, or they had returns of unsold stock, or there was a bill to pay).

That said, that was just the last straw - the thing that took them down to 0 hit points if you will. Had TSR not already been ailing, it's not impossible that it might have survived one or both of these events.

Un-sold books were 'stripped' (cover ripped off and returned as proof it wasn't sold) and destroyed and the publisher took the hit. TSR just plain printed too many novels, and when too many went unsold, faced a massive liability. That, and dragon dice and spellfire failing brought it down. AD&D 2e was a stodgy product, mechanically, but it's setting-focus and fast pace of publication was right for the 90s - it was all the ancillary products that helped bring TSR down (y'know, the kinda stuff Mearls is talking about being the bright future of the franchise - no cause for pessimism, though, it's almost 20 years later and things are different, now).