D&D 5E Any further clarification to Hiding in Player's Handbook?

[variant]

No, but multiple people keeping asking about how the stealth system works does make it so.

If they were good, they would be clear, and there would be much less clarifying needed.

Because some people aren't used to more abstract rules and insist for granularity that isn't hard coded into the system.

 

[Juriel]

Because some people aren't used to more abstract rules and insist for granularity that isn't hard coded into the system.

If the rules were embracing the abstract, you wouldn't have at least 4 separate portions of the rules trying to cover stealth-related things. It would be mentioned under Stealth that 'you can use this against Perception to be hidden, provided there's cover for that (ask your GM)', and be done with it.

They did not go that route but tried to codify it.

And so, then we have arguments around 'the rules say you cannot hide if you can be seen, so the moment you peek from the bushes you're revealed to everyone within a mile' vs 'they only mean hide as taking the hide action, you cannot be seen if you successfully hid already!'

 

[Charles Rampant]

The reason there is an effective floor is because the goblin isn't considered hidden unless its Stealth roll beats your Passive Perception.

Cheers!

Can you provide a rules reference to support that? All I see is that you use the Passive Perception when one side is actively rolling Stealth, as a means of rolling less dice. (Similarly, I think that when you have players using active Perception, it is acceptable to take Passive Stealth scores.) This comes up under 'Passive Perception' in the rules, suggesting that you follow that only when you are not rolling the dice. To my understanding, you don't get to combine the benefits of both passive and active perception.

 

[MerricB]

Can you provide a rules reference to support that? All I see is that you use the Passive Perception when one side is actively rolling Stealth, as a means of rolling less dice. (Similarly, I think that when you have players using active Perception, it is acceptable to take Passive Stealth scores.) This comes up under 'Passive Perception' in the rules, suggesting that you follow that only when you are not rolling the dice. To my understanding, you don't get to combine the benefits of both passive and active perception.

From the Basic Rules:
Chapter 8: Activities when Travelling; Stealth + Noticing Threats
Chapter 9: Surprise
Chapter 9: Actions in Combat: Hide

References also in my article.

Cheers!

 

[Charles Rampant]

Chapter 7: Hide

When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

[...]


Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature’s Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5

Chapter 8: Activities when Travelling; Stealth + Noticing Threats

While traveling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they’re not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter. See the rules for hiding in chapter 7.

Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot. While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a –5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.

Chapter 9: Surprise

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

Chapter 9: Actions in Combat: Hide

When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules in chapter 7 for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the “Unseen Attackers and Targets” section later in this chapter.

I don't see how any of this supports your position, that you use the passive score as a 'floor' for the check. They instead make it clear that the DM chooses whether passive or active is used; passive is treated as the assumed method for the other rules. The very first quote indicates that creatures actively searching make a roll, while those who don't instead are treated as having rolled 10. This means that actively searching is more swingy, not that it is taken in conjunction with the passive check.

 

[variant]

If the rules were embracing the abstract, you wouldn't have at least 4 separate portions of the rules trying to cover stealth-related things. It would be mentioned under Stealth that 'you can use this against Perception to be hidden, provided there's cover for that (ask your GM)', and be done with it.

They did not go that route but tried to codify it.

And so, then we have arguments around 'the rules say you cannot hide if you can be seen, so the moment you peek from the bushes you're revealed to everyone within a mile' vs 'they only mean hide as taking the hide action, you cannot be seen if you successfully hid already!'

You state this as fact when in reality it is just your opinion. All mentions are abstract in nature with basic rules on how to utilize the stealth skill. To me it just looks like you are looking for granularity where it doesn't exist.

 

[MerricB]

Passive Perception is always on.

Note also the rules of Passive Checks. 'The rules on hiding in the "Dexterity" section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules in chapter 8.'

 

[Nemio]

Ok, so now I'm even more confused because I'm not sure if I was right or not.
Can anyone ask Mearls so that I can use it correctly in my first game ?

 

[MerricB]

Similarly, I think that when you have players using active Perception, it is acceptable to take Passive Stealth scores.

This interpretation is directly contradicted by the rules.

"Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence." (emphasis mine)

I can see why you don't accept the Passive Perception rule, as it's not well expressed, but I do think the rules for Passive Perception in that same section (Hiding, chapter 7) apply at all times.

 

[fjw70]

No, but multiple people keeping asking about how the stealth system works does make it so.

If they were good, they would be clear, and there would be much less clarifying needed.

A few loud voices on the internet do not necessarily mean there is an issue. WotC has finally realized this and will be taking a more measured approach to game updates with this edition (hopefully they follow through on this).