D&D 5E Any further clarification to Hiding in Player's Handbook?

[Uller]

People are making this needlessly difficult. Last night our woodelf rogue (+11 stealth) was sniping a large group of lemures and spined devils from inside a ruin. She started the combat hidden. Made a stealth check vs passive perception, attacked with advantage, moved and hid again with cunning action. The devils moved in to try to find her. At first they did double moves and relied on passive perception. Then they tried single moves and a search action. As they started to corner her I gave her disadvantage on her checks (but with +11...12 min).

If she had just stayed in one place I wouldn't have allowed it. But as long as she could be mobile I let her do it because it is an important class feature to be able to attack, move and hide. For a DM to require some extravagant explanation every time would be tedious and would be like asking the evoker to explain how he sculps his fireball spell to miss the fighter but not the three ogres that are surrounding him.

Poking your head out from tthe same place more than once...no. moving and finding a new spot...yes. if the enemy moves and your spot is still viable...yes. if they move to make your hiding spot no longer viable...no unless they have some other distraction (such as charging the fighter). Having a low wisdom against a stealthy foe has consequences.

 

[Charles Rampant]

Passive Perception is always on.

Note also the rules of Passive Checks. 'The rules on hiding in the "Dexterity" section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules in chapter 8.'

Can you actually quote and explain the rules in question? I have quoted them, and they do not back your interpretation up. The idea that you can "take ten" on an active check and still have the opportunity to get above ten on the roll is radical and completely contrary to how the rules of the game normally work. The only thing that ever allows it, AFAIK, is a major class ability for the Rogue.

This interpretation is directly contradicted by the rules.

Yeah, that is more in the nature of a houserule than anything the rules directly say. I'm happy to reduce the rolls to mean that only the active participants (i.e. players) make the rolls, following the chain of logic, even if the rules don't allow it.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Passive Perception is always on.

Note also the rules of Passive Checks. 'The rules on hiding in the "Dexterity" section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules in chapter 8.'

Not at all. In fact, passive checks are optional rules. They "can" be used to represent doing something over and over as an average roll result (p.59 basic). It is a matter of convenience only - and imo a very poor mechanic altogether, and ought not be used at all (didnt exist pre 4e). When the event is occurring immediately, its a contest, both parties roll, and passive doesnt apply, at all.

 

[MerricB]

Not at all. In fact, passive checks are optional rules.

Please read again the section on Passive checks, in particular what it says about hiding and exploration.

"The rules on hiding... rely on passive checks". (emphasis mine). That is not the wording of an optional rule.

 

[variant]

And so, then we have arguments around 'the rules say you cannot hide if you can be seen, so the moment you peek from the bushes you're revealed to everyone within a mile' vs 'they only mean hide as taking the hide action, you cannot be seen if you successfully hid already!'

I decided I want to address this specifically. The only people arguing about such a rule are those that don't know the definition of can.

1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to: She can solve the problem easily, I'm sure.
2. to know how to: He can play chess, although he's not particularly good at it
3. to have the power or means to: A dictator can impose his will on the people.

 

[Imaro]

To my understanding, you don't get to combine the benefits of both passive and active perception.

I agree with this... The only way the passive perception score is used is if the enemy is not actively searching for you. the minute he does that passive no longer applies and it becomes a contested roll.

 

[MerricB]

Can you actually quote and explain the rules in question? I have quoted them, and they do not back your interpretation up. The idea that you can "take ten" on an active check and still have the opportunity to get above ten on the roll is radical and completely contrary to how the rules of the game normally work. The only thing that ever allows it, AFAIK, is a major class ability for the Rogue.

It's because it's not part of the active check.

The rationale is that most of the time you're not actively searching for hidden opponents. In fact, the only time you are is during your turn when you declare the "Search" action.

At all other times you're not actively looking for hidden opponents. At that point, by the Hide sidebar, you use your Passive Perception score. This is further mentioned in the section on Noticing Threats in Chapter 8. "Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat." and the section on Surprise in Chapter 9. "the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."

Interestingly, score is specifically defined in the rules: "The game refers to a passive ability check as a score" (Chapter 7). So, that last reference should really have a "passive" there to make it clearer.

From this, I take it that if the character attempting to hide rolls lower than the Passive Perception scores of the opponents, he fails to hide.

That's the reasoning, at least.

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

It's because it's not part of the active check.

The rationale is that most of the time you're not actively searching for hidden opponents. In fact, the only time you are is during your turn when you declare the "Search" action.

At all other times you're not actively looking for hidden opponents. At that point, by the Hide sidebar, you use your Passive Perception score. This is further mentioned in the section on Noticing Threats in Chapter 8. "Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat." and the section on Surprise in Chapter 9. "the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."

Interestingly, score is specifically defined in the rules: "The game refers to a passive ability check as a score" (Chapter 7). So, that last reference should really have a "passive" there to make it clearer.

From this, I take it that if the character attempting to hide rolls lower than the Passive Perception scores of the opponents, he fails to hide.

That's the reasoning, at least.

Cheers!

Actually this is what I am agreeing with... thought you guys were saying the same thing but apparently not.

 

[Mistwell]

I think the real problem with this sniping tactic is that once again "hiding" is not the same as getting behind cover, and is not the same as being unseen.

From the previous discussion, it seems implied that "hide" is what you do when you want to cause your enemies not to know your location. So they don't see where your attack is coming from.

Getting behind a wall makes you covered (which has it own benefits, entirely defensive) and unseen. But they know where you are: you are behind that wall.

Now, once you're behind that wall, you may want to hide if you further want to make it so that if someone walks behind the wall to reach you, they won't find you (because you're not only behind the wall, you are also hidden further somewhere there... provided there is also concealment or another cover for you).

But sniping cannot be that easy IMHO. You have given away your location (behind the tree, behind the column, behind the corner, behind an ally if you're a Lightfoot Halfling...) when you did your first attack. You are going to attack again from the same location. It shouldn't matter at all to make a Hide check at this point. You don't need a Hide check to get back behind the tree/column/corner/ally, you only need to use 5ft of your movement, or even 0ft. But at the same time you don't benefit from a Hide check because your location IS the tree/column/corner/ally, you've already made everyone aware of that, another Hide check cannot make them forget this information.

In the best case, I can imagine you may want to allow a "special" Hide check to negate the possibility of someone to notice your location in the first place (when you reveal it by attacking). But by the RAW, this is automatic if you attack.

Mearls suggests in his tweet, quoted above, that if your foe knows where you went when you try to hide, you hide at disadvantage.

 

[Agamon]

How is this part confusing? Passive is used when you aren't actively using the skill. If you take an action to Search, that's when you roll.