D&D 5E I think I finally get how hiding works

[designbot]

Yes, if you are hidden, you are by definition unseen, so you do get advantage.

However, you get the same advantage from being unseen whether you're hiding or not.

(An invisible creature, for instance, still has advantage even if it's making a lot of noise and attacking repeatedly.)

 

[samursus]

I'm still a bit confused on surprise though.

It doesn't seem to take into account creatures that are unseen, but not hiding.

For example, PCs are walking down a trail. They pass a large rock formation which a Bugbear is sitting behind. The Bugbear is not making any significant noise and because of the rock formation, he's unseen. He's not really trying to hide because there is no need.

Both sides are unseen, but neither is trying to hide.

As the PCs walk past the rock formation and come into the view of the Bugbear, should the DM use passive perceptions of the PCs vs. the stealth of the Bugbear? Should the DM use passive perceptions of the Bugbear vs. the stealth of the PCs?

Does this change if there is a waterfall nearby which obscures any noises of either group?


If the answer is that both sides just simultaneously see each other, no surprise, then that means that an unseen group cannot accidently startle another group. The unseen group has to be hiding and aware ahead of time of the other group.

In this case I would say the Bugbear is hidden (unseen and unheard) and the PC's are only unseen (walking unstealthily). The Bugbear would hear the PC's walking, talking etc... and could surprise them if he wanted. Add a waterfall and I would rule that BOTH are surprised and go from there. Usually this would cancel out, but some Feats and abilities include never being surprised, so that Alert person would get surprise then.

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree. Giving away your location is different from remaining unseen. You should be able to attack, and hide in the same spot again, as long as you still meet the vision requirements that allowed you to hide in the first place. Creatures will know you are there, but they will have disadvantage on attacks because they can't see you.

The game becomes WAY too complex and combat slows down if the DM allows creatures to fire arrows from light obscured areas while remaining unseen, but not hidden. The Perception checks to spot those foes are at disadvantage. Rolling disadvantaged perception rolls every round to spot creatures in lightly obscured areas is a pain.

Only a heavily obscured area states that the creatures are unseen (i.e. vision is blocked completely).


The concept that someone is standing in a fog and remaining unseen seems a bit off. I have no problem with an NPC hiding in the corner of a completely black room and darkvision not initially seeing him. I have more of a problem with once he fires his weapon, your darkvision does not spot him. He's in plain sight, not hiding behind anything. Hidden to begin with, but not once he fires his weapon. He's in plain view, but he is still in light concealment (i.e. dim light).

If he can see you with his Darkvision in total darkness, then you can see him with your Darkvision in total darkness.

It was the hidden state that allowed him to be unseen initially. That hidden state no longer exists once he attacks.

The problem comes in when one says that someone is hidden when their location is known automatically. The foe needs to hide again once he gives away his location in order to be hidden again.

If you move into a lightly or heavily obscured area, the creature has to make Perception vs. Stealth checks to see you.

No.

If you move into a heavily obscured area, you are automatically unseen and you cannot be seen with a perception check.

Also:

1) Lightly obscured areas do not block sight. Walking into moderate bushes does not make one unseen in order to require a perception.
2) Hiding requires an action.
3) Stealth checks are required when hiding, not when in lightly obscured areas and not hiding (i.e. position given away).

Seen until unseen.


Perception checks are only required in lightly obscured areas if the creature is hidden.

One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.

The quote here states that the creature has to be hidden.


Someone standing in fog is not unseen. They are only hidden if they take the hide action. They might not be perceived initially (passive perception), but once they give away their position via attacking, they are now seen.

If they hide again, then they become unseen again and then it is Disadvantaged Perception vs. Stealth to find them. You might know their position, but they are unseen until you spot them or they attack again.


If creatures are in the bushes where they cannot be seen, then that is heavily obscured, not lightly obscured.

Lightly obscured means a few bushes in the way, fog, or dim light. It does not mean unseen. It only means unseen if hidden. Once attacking, a foe is no longer hidden (unless he is invisible or in heavily obscured, i.e. unseen).


I get your interpretation, but it is way too strong, a bit nonsensical (What do you mean that I cannot see the guy attacking me there in the fog? He can easily see me through the same fog that I cannot see him through. WT?), and it slows down combat.

 

[designbot]

Would you agree that hidden=unseen+unheard? If so maybe that would be a good item item to put in your key points list.

It strikes me as a good way to define the Hide action, as a visual component and an audial component. Cover, obscured, invisible would be the visual requisite and the Stealth skill would be the audial?

No, I don't think I would quite agree. There is no explicit definition of a "hidden" status that grants special benefits. Hiding is an action you can take. I think it's possible to hide from an enemy in some situations (meaning they have to make a Perception check vs. your Stealth to see you), even though they know where you are.

I could be wrong.

 

[Tony Semana]

I'm still a bit confused on surprise though.

It doesn't seem to take into account creatures that are unseen, but not hiding.

For example, PCs are walking down a trail. They pass a large rock formation which a Bugbear is sitting behind. The Bugbear is not making any significant noise and because of the rock formation, he's unseen. He's not really trying to hide because there is no need.

Both sides are unseen, but neither is trying to hide.

As the PCs walk past the rock formation and come into the view of the Bugbear, should the DM use passive perceptions of the PCs vs. the stealth of the Bugbear? Should the DM use passive perceptions of the Bugbear vs. the stealth of the PCs?

Does this change if there is a waterfall nearby which obscures any noises of either group?


If the answer is that both sides just simultaneously see each other, no surprise, then that means that an unseen group cannot accidently startle another group. The unseen group has to be hiding and aware ahead of time of the other group.

That's correct. Page 189 says "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."

I generally agree with the simultaneous discovery. In this specific example, I think I would adjudicate it like this:

- Because the PC's are in motion and the bugbear is stationary: are the PC's making an effort to move quietly? If yes, then I would check their last stealth roll vs. the bugbear's passive perception. If no, then I would set an easy DC check for the bugbear to hear the Party

- if the bugbear loses they startle each other

- if the bugbear wins the perceptions contest, then he gets to make a stealth roll (to hold perfectly still) against the PC's passive perceptions. The roll would either be at disadvantage or +5 to PC's PP to represent that he's unseen but not behind cover, they might walk right past the rocks without glancing back.

- if the bugbear wins the contest, then he remains unseen. If he loses then the PC's see him

 

[Paraxis]

As long as a wood elf 2nd level rogue can (attack w/advantage-move-hide as bonus action) in an empty field while it is raining or snowing, and a lightfoot halfling 2nd level rogue can (attack w/advantage - move - hide as a bonus action) behind an ally in and empty field, it all works out good.

 

[samursus]

No, I don't think I would quite agree. There is no explicit definition of a "hidden" status that grants special benefits. Hiding is an action you can take. I think it's possible to hide from an enemy in some situations (meaning they have to make a Perception check vs. your Stealth to see you), even though they know where you are.

I could be wrong.

Hmm. Yeah I get what you are saying. However, I think its going to be a rare occurrence when one is unseen and unheard and hasn't taken the Hide action. So it's not that big of a deal to me to remember it that way. And of course the Halfling can bypasses the "unseen" component, as well as other abilities/spells I am sure. I think I am going to rule those abilities as being able to become "unseen" in non-optimal conditions.

[video=youtube;ltmMJntSfQI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI[/video]

For ex: Halfling hiding behind another creature is moving in a way that provides enough cover that those that fail their Perception cannot "actually" perceive any Halfling there. Even if they know he's behind there somewhere.

 

[designbot]

QUTOE

I think we're mostly in agreement? I'm saying that being "hidden" does not grant you any special advantage. What matters is whether you can be seen. And taking the Hide action (after meeting the requirements) can help you become unseen, even if someone knows your location while you're hiding.

The game becomes WAY too complex and combat slows down if the DM allows creatures to fire arrows from light obscured areas while remaining unseen, but not hidden. The Perception checks to spot those foes are at disadvantage. Rolling disadvantaged perception rolls every round to spot creatures in lightly obscured areas is a pain.

In my example, the creature was popping out from behind total cover, then popping back. You can't hit a creature behind total cover anyway. The only question was whether the creature should get advantage for being unseen if it was hiding and temporarily passed into a lightly obscured area. (I think it might depend the result of a Perception vs. Stealth check.) I agree that attacking stops a creature from being hidden. I think the creature can take the Hide action again on their next turn (or as a bonus action for some creatures) if they are in the same location but unseen when they hid.

The problem comes in when one says that someone is hidden when their location is known automatically. The foe needs to hide again once he gives away his location in order to be hidden again.

Yes, if someone is hiding in a black room and you have darkvision, that's a lightly obscured area. They attack, they give away their position, and you can see them. They can't hide again unless they have a special ability to hide in lightly obscured areas.

Someone standing in fog is not unseen. They are only hidden if they take the hide action. They might not be perceived initially (passive perception), but once they give away their position via attacking, they are now seen.

If they hide again, then they become unseen again and then it is Disadvantaged Perception vs. Stealth to find them. You might know their position, but they are unseen until you spot them or they attack again.

If someone is hiding in opaque fog, that's heavily obscured, so they are unseen whether they hide or not. If someone is hiding in patchy fog, that's lightly obscured—the same as the previous scenario. I agree that someone is only hidden if they take the hide action, and that hiding can help them be unseen even though you know their position.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think we're mostly in agreement? I'm saying that being "hidden" does not grant you any special advantage. What matters is whether you can be seen. And taking the Hide action (after meeting the requirements) can help you become unseen, even if someone knows your location while you're hiding.

That's not quite what I understood from your first post:

I disagree. Giving away your location is different from remaining unseen. You should be able to attack, and hide in the same spot again, as long as you still meet the vision requirements that allowed you to hide in the first place. Creatures will know you are there, but they will have disadvantage on attacks because they can't see you.

You did not mention movement here, so I was assuming "attack from behind moderate bushes, do not move, cannot be seen until a disadvantaged perception" as your interpretation. I missed the word Hide in your second sentence here and was focused on the bolded words.


So, we are in agreement that if you are hiding in a lightly obscured area and you attack, you are automatically seen and your position is automatically known and you are no longer hiding. Only if you hide again (even in the exact same spot) do you force Disadvantaged Perception vs. your Stealth check.

 

[designbot]

Yup.