D&D 5E Cutting Words and game flow

[Ilbranteloth]

Personally I don't think it's a big deal to let them decide to use it after the result if the roll is known. Because if you're rolling in front of them they're going to know anyway.

PC has a 17 AC. Proficiency bonus is at least +2 and the DM rolls a 15. Anybody who has played the game for any period of time doesn't have to wait for the DM to tell them if it hits or not.

I think the most common use of this will be to avoid a critical. I know it would be in my campaign, but critical are a bigger deal in my campaign.

Of course if it's used a lot it will also annoy the enemy. The bard only gets one reaction a round so when they get tired of him running off his mouth they'll gang up on him. Of course that could be what he had in mind...

Randy

 

[Dastion]

I think the most common use of this will be to avoid a critical. I know it would be in my campaign, but critical are a bigger deal in my campaign.


Randy

Doesn't work on criticals. Critical hits/misses are based in the natural roll of the die. Modifying it with cutting words doesn't change the natural result.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Doesn't work on criticals. Critical hits/misses are based in the natural roll of the die. Modifying it with cutting words doesn't change the natural result.

Interesting point. I would have thought of this as a 'specific trumps general' rule. The fact that the rules state the player can decide after the roll is made, and that there isn't something that specifically states that it doesn't work on criticals is why I would rule you could.

I realize that at higher levels he could use it every round, but I'd still maintain that his enemies would go after the blabbermouth that doesn't shut up. It only works against creatures that he can insult anyway. And all it takes is a 2nd level silence spell to put an end to it.

So I don't think it would be particularly problematic to apply to criticals too.

Randy

 

[jadrax]

Interesting point. I would have thought of this as a 'specific trumps general' rule.

The specific rule in this case is that a Natural 20 on a dice roll is a Critical Hit, regardless of modifiers.

 

[Dastion]

Interesting point. I would have thought of this as a 'specific trumps general' rule. The fact that the rules state the player can decide after the roll is made, and that there isn't something that specifically states that it doesn't work on criticals is why I would rule you could.

I realize that at higher levels he could use it every round, but I'd still maintain that his enemies would go after the blabbermouth that doesn't shut up. It only works against creatures that he can insult anyway. And all it takes is a 2nd level silence spell to put an end to it.

So I don't think it would be particularly problematic to apply to criticals too.

Randy

Except that that the Crit rule specifically refers to the result of the d20 roll without any modifiers.

Specific vs general. Otherwise you'd have players with Bless who roll a nat 20 but don't get a Crit because it's now a "22", or people who roll a 16 and a 4 while blessed and want it to count as a Crit.

Natural 1s and 20s on attack rolls are supposed to be awesome, so much so that many DMs houseful it to apply to ability checks and saving throws too.

You can, of course, house rule otherwise but to many people the 'natural 1 or 20' is rather sacrosanct.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Well, every rule is specific.

The point is that if Cutting Words allowed you to apply it to avoid a critical, that would be the exception to the rule, not the general rule that applies to everybody.

Pg 7 - That said, many...class features...break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

So the question now is this: Are there any rules that can never have an exception?

More specificall: Can you ever have a rule that overrides a critical hit or critical miss?

Yes, you can. Halflings will rarely have a critical miss because of their Lucky ability. So does the Lucky feat. Because you get to decide after you see their roll if you want to spend a luck point and roll a second die to use instead. The only real difference between the Cutting Words class feature and Lucky is that there's still a possibility that they could still roll a critical when you reroll the attack roll.

As long as it applies to everybody (PCs and otherwise), I would be OK with it in concept. The way the ability is designed, it gives you a variable bonus (or penalty to an opponent's roll). A lot of the other abilities would just give you advantage or the opponent disadvantage, which doesn't prevent a critical hit but certainly reduces the chances a lot.

I'd be OK with either approach depending on what the rest of the players thought.

Randy

 

[Dastion]

Well, every rule is specific.

The point is that if Cutting Words allowed you to apply it to avoid a critical, that would be the exception to the rule, not the general rule that applies to everybody.

Pg 7 - That said, many...class features...break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

So the question now is this: Are there any rules that can never have an exception?

More specificall: Can you ever have a rule that overrides a critical hit or critical miss?

Yes, you can. Halflings will rarely have a critical miss because of their Lucky ability. So does the Lucky feat. Because you get to decide after you see their roll if you want to spend a luck point and roll a second die to use instead. The only real difference between the Cutting Words class feature and Lucky is that there's still a possibility that they could still roll a critical when you reroll the attack roll.

As long as it applies to everybody (PCs and otherwise), I would be OK with it in concept. The way the ability is designed, it gives you a variable bonus (or penalty to an opponent's roll). A lot of the other abilities would just give you advantage or the opponent disadvantage, which doesn't prevent a critical hit but certainly reduces the chances a lot.

I'd be OK with either approach depending on what the rest of the players thought.

Randy

Not quite. The Halfling Lucky and Lucky feats replace the d20 roll. So you are still relying on the natural d20 die result.

Bardic Inspiration along with other bonus die modifiers are just that - modifiers which the critical rule specifically ignores. Otherwise casting Bane on an enemy makes it impossible for them to Crit since even if they roll a nat 20 and a 1 on the Bane die, by your logic that would be a 19 and not a Crit.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Not quite. The Halfling Lucky and Lucky feats replace the d20 roll. So you are still relying on the natural d20 die result.

Bardic Inspiration along with other bonus die modifiers are just that - modifiers which the critical rule specifically ignores. Otherwise casting Bane on an enemy makes it impossible for them to Crit since even if they roll a nat 20 and a 1 on the Bane die, by your logic that would be a 19 and not a Crit.

Except that Bane doesn't allow you to look at the die roll and determine whether you want to use your ability or not. That's what makes it similar to Lucky and what leads me to believe that it could possibly apply to criticals as well. Obviously if it doesn't apply to criticals you could just decide not to use it, which is fine with me too.

I totally understand your reasoning and don't necessarily disagree with it.

It doesn't really make a difference to me, and as a DM I'd be happy with either ruling depending on what the players prefer. As long as it's consistent.

Randy

 

[Mistwell]

You give up a lot to get cutting words. It's the primary reason most will choose a lore bard over a valor bard. The valor bard is getting multiple attacks, and the lore bard is getting more efficient use of their inspiration dice. But, unless you give them some hint of when their cutting words may be effective or not, you're really telling the player that the principal theme of the lore bard won't be as useful to them as choosing the other sub-class.

Just give them a hint. You don't need to roll in front of the player, but let them know in some way when their ability might be useful. Their character DOES know - they choose to use it after the foe swings their weapon but before it connects, so they can SEE if it's going to be a certain hit or a certain miss or something in between in the moment. You're making it harder on the player for flow of the game, at the expense of not just their class choices, but of believability as well, as their player is now using it when the character obviously would not be using it.

 

[Blackbrrd]

You could go with teh more generous route.

Keep the roll secret, but actually tell the players if something is a hit or a miss and let them decide if they want to use the ability.

I fully agree, it's not like this extra benefit will break the game.