Extras for crits with weapons ?

[MoutonRustique]

I've been wondering about this and would be interested in your thoughts on the matter :

When using inherent bonuses and having the +d6/"plus" on the crit as a baseline, what would be an appropriate "bonus" to criting with a magical weapon. I find that simply converting "damage" to "fire damage" is a bit... lackluster for a crit.

I was thinking about up-ing the crit die type to d10 or something.

NOTE: I am not overly concerned about balance in my games as I find 4e very sturdy and things easy to adjust on the fly - so a bit more damage from a PC once in a while is a very far cry from a deal breaker for me.

Thoughts ?

 

[Ashoka]

Well, for my first post I'll take a crack at this one.

Characters have to choose whether they're going to use the Inherent Bonus or the magic Enhancement Bonus. The Inherent Bonus is there to make it so you don't need magic Enhancements to keep up with higher-level threats. They don't stack. The crit bonuses don't stack either.

If you're using a magic weapon and you're using the weapons magic Enhancement Bonus, then you don't get the Inherent Bonus. If you crit, you use the weapon's magical crit dice. You don't have a choice in that.

If you're using a magic weapon but you've chosen to use your Inherent Bonus instead (maybe the weapon has a lower Enhancement than the Inherent Bonus), then you use the Inherent Bonus crit dice. You don't have a choice in this, either. (Although, you can choose whether or not to have the weapon's magic properties active, like fire damage.)

If the DM keeps up with the recommended magic items by level, then the Inherent Bonuses and your Enhancement Bonuses should always be equal. If you have a DM like I did, then you find yourself yearning to be able to use Inherent Bonuses because you're still wielding a +2 sword at level 23. My character kept up because I did my best to OP him without going too far -- but if he had the appropriate magic weapons, he would have been unstoppable (compared to the campaign and the other PCs).

That's how I understand the RAW. But 4e seems pretty durable and transparent, so do what you want with it.

If this doesn't answer things, do you have a specific example? I have a feeling I may have missed a detail.

 

[Tony Vargas]

AFAICT, you don't get any extra dice of damage based on your inherent bonus when you crit, so a magic weapon/implement's crit dice would be a benefit of using the weapon, even if your inherent bonus were greater than it's enhancement bonus.

I also don't think you need to 'choose' to use one or the other, they simply don't stack.

 

[Ashoka]

OP's right that you get extra crit dice with Inherent Bonuses (+1d6 per bonus point) but it doesn't matter much because magic weapons usually have better dice. I think it's only an issue if it's a much lower level magic weapon, in which case I don't know what the official answer is. I'd say that which ever bonus you're using/drawing upon determines which crit dice you get.

 

[Jhaelen]

OP's right that you get extra crit dice with Inherent Bonuses (+1d6 per bonus point) but it doesn't matter much because magic weapons usually have better dice.

This. I actually can't think of a magic weapon that has a worse effect on a crit. +1d6 is the baseline. If there should actually be a magic weapon with +1d4 only, it will have some kind of additional effect and in that case I'd allow the player to choose whether to apply the +1d6 from the inherent bonus or the magic weapon's crit effect.

 

[Jer]

I would look to the theme of the weapon itself to decide on extra crit effects. If you have the Gamma World game handy you can look at the inherent crit effects that those origins have to get some ideas of interesting effects that you can add to your weapons to make a crit with them special. They're already built to be crit effects, and I've found them to be pretty balanced.

I might also look at the various Channel Divinity feats for mechanics that are worthwhile to steal, since IIRC most (all?) of them activate on a crit and even though those are technically Encounter powers if the same player a) has a magic weapon and b) makes multiple crits in a single battle then the dice are telling me that s/he probably should get a big benefit from it and it should be cool. (To be fair many of the Channel Divinity feats don't fit my definition of "cool" but maybe they'd be better as magic item effects that work automatically on a crit instead of class feat powers).

But I'm pretty fast-and-loose with power level at my table. I'd probably be okay with a crit effect that mimicked a melee, close or close burst Encounter power from another class. Even if another player at the table had that power, it probably wouldn't step on their toes if it only occurred on a crit.

(If you're asking about just plain old magical weapons with no other powers so there's no real theme to the weapon I'd be at a loss. I never hand those out to my players and since we use inherent bonuses because I hate doing the accounting to make sure I'm handing out magic items at the right rate nobody ever buys them either. Every weapon they have has a theme to it, even if it is just an elemental theme of "fire" or "frost" or whatever.).

 

[MoutonRustique]

I would look to the theme of the weapon itself to decide on extra crit effects. If you have the Gamma World game handy you can look at the inherent crit effects that those origins have to get some ideas of interesting effects that you can add to your weapons to make a crit with them special. They're already built to be crit effects, and I've found them to be pretty balanced.

I might also look at the various Channel Divinity feats for mechanics that are worthwhile to steal, since IIRC most (all?) of them activate on a crit and even though those are technically Encounter powers if the same player a) has a magic weapon and b) makes multiple crits in a single battle then the dice are telling me that s/he probably should get a big benefit from it and it should be cool. (To be fair many of the Channel Divinity feats don't fit my definition of "cool" but maybe they'd be better as magic item effects that work automatically on a crit instead of class feat powers).

Those are some nice ideas!

I think I was unclear in my premise : I use inherent bonuses and treat them in all ways as if they were weapon bonuses - because it is "boring" in a sense to do "only" max damage on a crit. The idea was not to add the weapon crit die TO the "base" crit die - it was to find something better than << using a flaming weapon as an example, the crit dice became fire damage instead of "weapon" damage. >> By better, I mean more interesting.

@ALL - thank you for the input.

NOTE:
I'm currently playing in a game with only 2 players - so I use a lot of minions (actually, most of them are 2 hit "super-minions" with a kill threshold.) As such, I highly dislike auto-damage effects especially when they offer the opportunity to "bypass" a given minions' "schtick" (i.e. soldier minions' high defenses). Plus I pushed for the warlock to take "bloodied boon" and "daughter's promise" - you should see the "chain reactions" that often develop!

On the other hand, we're talking crits here... it's not like they're predictable...

ANOTHER NOTE:
The hellfire 'lock character is broken beyond belief (my fault entirely and completely) and I'm wondering about implementing this change to helllish rebuke :
"when you are attacked, +1d6 damage against that target"
OR
"when you are hit, +1d6 damage against that target"
OR
"something awesome I haven't thought of"

In this case, it's a massive nerf - but one I'm pretty sure the player will accept. But I'm curious about what you guys think of it in a more "neutral" perspective - how would you receive this kind of change at your tables ? And which would you prefer? Why? And if you'd have an alternate version/mod?

Please forgive the non-exhaustive style of the description, I'm pretty sure we'll all get what I'm going for.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm not see'n the crit dice in DMG2 or in the updates, but if that's how the OP's running it, no problem...

This. I actually can't think of a magic weapon that has a worse effect on a crit. +1d6 is the baseline. If there should actually be a magic weapon with +1d4 only, it will have some kind of additional effect and in that case I'd allow the player to choose whether to apply the +1d6 from the inherent bonus or the magic weapon's crit effect.

There are a few magic weapons that do nothing special on a crit (but have a nice property - Challenge Seeking is the one I can recall off the top of my head), or that do something other than damage on a crit.

I think I was unclear in my premise : I use inherent bonuses and treat them in all ways as if they were weapon bonuses - because it is "boring" in a sense to do "only" max damage on a crit. The idea was not to add the weapon crit die TO the "base" crit die - it was to find something better than << using a flaming weapon as an example, the crit dice became fire damage instead of "weapon" damage. >> By better, I mean more interesting.

You could impose a save-ends condition appropriate to the magic weapon. Like ongoing fire damage for the flaming weapon, for an obvious instance.

NOTE:
I'm currently playing in a game with only 2 players - so I use a lot of minions (actually, most of them are 2 hit "super-minions" with a kill threshold.) As such, I highly dislike auto-damage effects especially when they offer the opportunity to "bypass" a given minions' "schtick" (i.e. soldier minions' high defenses)....

On the other hand, we're talking crits here... it's not like they're predictable...

Crits tend to be really disappointing against minions, since any ol' hit already kills 'em. Letting a crit drop a fresh super-minion would be cool. Or, for a regular minion or super-minion, let it 'cleave' 3e-style, and allow you to repeat the attack on another minion in range/reach.

ANOTHER NOTE:
The hellfire 'lock character is broken beyond belief (my fault entirely and completely) and I'm wondering about implementing this change to helllish rebuke :
"when you are attacked, +1d6 damage against that target"
OR
"when you are hit, +1d6 damage against that target"
OR
"something awesome I haven't thought of"

You could go with "when you are hit & take damage" or "when the target attacks you" or "if you take damage during the target's turn" or "when an enemy's action causes you to take damage."

I assume what you're trying to get around is him setting himself up to take trivial damage somehow?

 

[MoutonRustique]

You could impose a save-ends condition appropriate to the magic weapon. Like ongoing fire damage for the flaming weapon, for an obvious instance.

That is a very simple and effective idea - I'll bring it up with the player for certain.

Crits tend to be really disappointing against minions, since any ol' hit already kills 'em. Letting a crit drop a fresh super-minion would be cool. Or, for a regular minion or super-minion, let it 'cleave' 3e-style, and allow you to repeat the attack on another minion in range/reach.

In this instance, crits are auto-kills on the "super-minions" - but your idea about a "cleave" does sound good.

My super-minions have a "to kill" dmg threshold (otherwise, they are bloodied). When getting a crit, kill one and bloody a second one would be appropriate - and quite cinematic.

I assume what you're trying to get around is him setting himself up to take trivial damage somehow?

In a sense. I game him an Abyssal Bloodclaw Staff : take the "+" in dmg when you cast a spell (no choice), but you deal "+" x2 extra dmg (x3 when using in 2 hands.) It is a "cursed" item - cursed as in you don't control it, but really... when would you not use it? It also has the obvious effect of constantly triggering hellish rebuke.

Initially, it was to increase the party's dps (and just make everything blow up constantly as he has the feats that create a burst around a cursed target that dies (as a boon), the feat that makes bloodied proc as 0hp for boons, AND the one that gives a 5 fire dmg to a target when he deals the "second" damage of hellish rebuke - so much hellfire!) And it's been a blast! (ah!)

However, I'm trying to speed play a bit and we often forget the hellish proc and I'd like to make the power easier to use. And avoid the "oh, yeah. I forgot, that dude takes 27 more dmg. Ok, he'd be dead then. Oh, and that would cause those two to take 5. That one was cursed, so it bursts when it bloodies. So that one there also takes 5. Ok... I think that's it. No, wait. That one over there takes 5 also when I took damage. And it was cursed so it bursts when it bloodies... etc." It's my fault, if it's anyone's, but it is now distracting from the fun for everyone (the 'lock player included) so it's time for a change.

Options floating in my head (not mutually exclusive) :
(all effects added when struck/damaged on the next attack BEoNT against the offender)
- straight dmg boost
- add ongoing dmg
- add area dmg
- add a push
- add a knock down
- curse dmg doubled
- add debuff-status (blinded, -2 to hit, etc.)
- increase crit-range
- increase accuracy (bonus to hit, "advantage", etc.)
- something else

 

[vagabundo]

I've run into something similar in my own game when using inherent bonuses.

Does anyone know what the level progression is for the crit bonuses? So at 1st I give them an extra 1d6 on a crit with a weapon or implement, at what level do you guy think I should move to a 2d6?