D&D 5E Forced movement

[KarinsDad]

In the case of Eldritch Spear, the player invested valuable character resources into the ability to push people off of cliffs. What's punitive is when you negate that by allowing his target a saving throw. It's an extremely situational benefit, and you've just taken it away because your monster isn't smart enough to move the fight to a safer spot, but you think it's somehow cheap or anticlimactic to let the players use gravity (and the monster's stupidity) to their advantage.

The yakety-sax scenario is only going to be a thing when the combatants on either side go into such a battle unprepared. If your party prepares spells like feather fall and levitation, and if you do everything in your power to avoid getting near the edge, your chances of not falling increase drastically.

If you don't take those precautions, you deserve every bit of yakety sax you get, with Benny Hill dancing on your grave when you hit bottom.

I agree with you, but I do think that cinematic fights like at the top of waterfalls or on rocks in the river, etc. will be avoided by players if a single simple to hit takes them out of combat or kills them. That's a little too similar to save or suck (although it is a to hit roll, not a save).

 

[Tormyr]

I was thinking more in terms of 4e really, where everyone and their mother had forced movement abilities, including many monsters as well as PCs.

There's a lot less forced movement in 5e, so it may be less of an issue. The thing that jumps out at me though is the warlock's eldritch spear, with the potential to push people 40 ft in a single turn. It seems a bit ridiculous that a warlock can at-will target people who are twenty feet from a cliff and knock them over it more often than not.

Multi-attacking, combined with shove, also has a lot of potential for making silly things happen near cliffs.

I will have to go take a look at the warlock. As for shove, you are getting a saving throw. It is part of the skills contest.

 

[KarinsDad]

I will have to go take a look at the warlock. As for shove, you are getting a saving throw. It is part of the skills contest.

This is actually a bit in favor of the strength based melee attacker when talking medium sized foes. Granted, he has to roll higher and the defender can roll Str or Dex, but the odds of knocking someone off a cliff with this system ranges from about 40% (high str/dex foe) to 65% (low str/dex foe) without Athletics trained. Many medium sized foes in the MM have at best 14 Str or Dex (obviously not most of the larger creatures). Very few creatures actually have Athletics or Acrobatics, so the odds are really good for str based PCs to easily do this. The save tends to be subpar if the attacker has a better bonus (which is often the case for str PCs).

A Str based PC with Athletics trained can use this right and left with a high degree of success. The save means little.

And the higher the PC gets, the more he is able to shove even larger and stronger creatures off of cliffs.

A 17th level 20 Str Fighter with Athletics trained has a 50/50 chance of pushing the Tarrasque off a cliff.

 

[Joe Liker]

A 17th level 20 Str Fighter with Athletics trained has a 50/50 chance of pushing the Tarrasque off a cliff.

Normally you cannot shove a target that is more than one size category larger than you. Is this some fighter thing I've overlooked?

 

[Tormyr]

This is actually a bit in favor of the strength based melee attacker when talking medium sized foes. Granted, he has to roll higher and the defender can roll Str or Dex, but the odds of knocking someone off a cliff with this system ranges from about 40% (high str/dex foe) to 65% (low str/dex foe) without Athletics trained. Many medium sized foes in the MM have at best 14 Str or Dex (obviously not most of the larger creatures). Very few creatures actually have Athletics or Acrobatics, so the odds are really good for str based PCs to easily do this. The save tends to be subpar if the attacker has a better bonus (which is often the case for str PCs).

A Str based PC with Athletics trained can use this right and left with a high degree of success. The save means little.

And the higher the PC gets, the more he is able to shove even larger and stronger creatures off of cliffs.

A 17th level 20 Str Fighter with Athletics trained has a 50/50 chance of pushing the Tarrasque off a cliff.

Well, you only get 5 feet with each shove. Unless the guy is right up against the edge, it probably will not happen, because they can just move in between turns unless a multi-attacking fighter hits several shoves in a row.

Unfortunately, you can only shove 1 creature size larger than yours, so the fighter doesn't get to shove the Tarrasque. The Circle of the Moon druid, on the other hand, can wild shape into something big like a dragon turtle or mammoth and push it over.

 

[ranger69]

Depending on how far the victim is pushed off a cliff I would allow a Dexterity (Athletics)/(Acrobatics) to grab the edge of the cliff, or a ledge or bush partway down.

 

[Tormyr]

Depending on how far the victim is pushed off a cliff I would allow a Dexterity (Athletics)/(Acrobatics) to grab the edge of the cliff, or a ledge or bush partway down.

That would be a heck of a DC considering how fast they would be traveling. Don't forget that in general, if they were pushed, they will be falling away from the cliff.

 

[Joe Liker]

Depending on how far the victim is pushed off a cliff I would allow a Dexterity (Athletics)/(Acrobatics) to grab the edge of the cliff, or a ledge or bush partway down.

I very much want to start a rant against Dexterity (Athletics) now, but I'll refrain because that's not the subject of this thread.

 

[Joe Liker]

The Circle of the Moon druid, on the other hand, can wild shape into something big like a dragon turtle or mammoth and push it over.

Which is awesome, and it would be super frustrating and lame if a saving throw ruined it.

Plus, it would have to be an insanely high cliff to actually kill the Tarrasque.

(Is a dragon turtle a beast? I don't have my MM with me, but I doubt it.)

 

[Tormyr]

Which is awesome, and it would be super frustrating and lame if a saving throw ruined it.

Plus, it would have to be an insanely high cliff to actually kill the Tarrasque.

(Is a dragon turtle a beast? I don't have my MM with me, but I doubt it.)

It is a dragon. I am not up on druid's rules. I saw the youtube video with SlyFlourish DMing a level 20 party against a Tarrasque. The druid had been swallowed and kept shapeshifting into larger creatures to get regurgitated. He turned into a dragon turtle and popped out.

Height of the cliff does not matter. The maximum damage is 20d6 for a 200 foot cliff. I imagine it stops going up because of terminal velocity or something.

I was slightly surprised they did not make it 20d(whatever your size is). So 210 (20d20) for the Tarrasque would be more exciting than 70 (20d6). 50(20d4) would make more sense for a mephit or other tiny creature, but that is just my opinion, and it makes things a bit more complex.