D&D 5E Elves, Wizards, Sorcerers, Charisma

Mr Fixit

Explorer
Musing on ability bonuses for various races, I asked myself: "Why don't elves--except for the drow, that is--have increased Charisma?"

Right there in the second paragraph of their PHB entry, not counting the in-fiction excerpt, it says: "With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races." Primarily based upon Tolkien's elves, where they are described as beautiful and exceptionally strong-willed, it seems high Charisma would be a pretty natural fit for a D&D elf. Certainly more so than, say, Intelligence. I never got any vibe that they are necessarily more intelligent than humans. Charismatic and wise, sure. Intelligent? Not really.

Thus I pondered upon this topic of utmost importance for many a long minute and came to realise that it was done to preserve the elves' wizardry angle. For reasons of mechanical balance, they can't have bonuses to DEX and CHA, and WIS/INT to boot. Since they've been described from the early days of D&D as powerful mages, it's expected that they should have a bonus to INT (high elves at least). Thing is, that seems like a relic of past editions--pre-3E in fact-- when the only arcane magic option was the wizard. Now, with warlocks, sorcerers, and full caster bards, I don't think there's that much of a need to emphasise a wizarding elf.

On the contrary, they are described as inherently magical. Every high elf knows a cantrip. Magic is in their blood. Doesn't that sound a bit sorcerous? And lo and behold, Charisma is just the needed stat to make a great sorcerer! But why stop there? Elves, with their fey ancestry and mystical bonds with nature would lore-wise make for great warlocks with Archfey patrons, wouldn't they? And what of bards? Elves have long been great bards of D&D fiction, what with their famous ballads and delicate poetry. And valour bards seem like a pretty good fit for the feel of the classic elven bladesinger. All of those classes work with Charisma as the primary stat.

So, what do would you think of a little bit of elf rejiggering? I'm not entirely sure how to do it, though. Got any good ideas? I'm uncertain how to reconcile their high agility with the need for higher charisma without making them overpowered or underpowered with regards to some popular builds.

Instead of +2 DEX, how about +1 DEX? Then, for High Elves +2 CHA and for Wood Elves +1 DEX (for a total of +2) and +1 WIS (making them essentially unchanged).
 
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DracoSuave

First Post
High elves get their cantrip through a long life of studying that magic, which is why it is based on their intellect and has to be a wizard cantrip. They have no inherent talent for rejiggering magic as it is cast, no relation to dragons, and the notion of wild-magic seems to be counteractive to a long lived race built around tradition and consistancy.

High elves don't have a hard force of personality inbred into them. That's not their thing. They're a far more cerebral race.

Charisma-based races are much more impulsive than normal, and that leads them to forms of magic that are based on intuition and impulsiveness.

High elves are methodical, on the other hand. Measured. Take their time. Come to the right decision... eventually. Impulsiveness doesn't lean well to their natural proclivities. Even their art is measured, honed, perfected. They're too focused on perfection to embrace the charisma-based magical disciplines.

Think in terms of blue magic vs red magic in M:tG. High Elves are blue, drow are on the redder side of black.
 

Nivenus

First Post
The other thing is that appearance and charisma have been strongly divorced from one another for a long time. Elves are almost always described as beautiful and tieflings are often described as "odd" or sometimes even "disfigured" but the latter gets a charisma bonus (3e being the sole exception) while the former gets an intelligence bonus.

Charisma's probably the most ambiguous of the six ability score in D&D (though Wisdom's kind of nebulous as well). At times it stands in for charm and social grace. At other times it's willpower or moxie. Occasionally (though more rarely these days) it represents attractiveness. But it's not any one of these things 100%.
 


Lancelot

Adventurer
Primarily based upon Tolkien's elves, where they are described as beautiful and exceptionally strong-willed, it seems high Charisma would be a pretty natural fit for a D&D elf. Certainly more so than, say, Intelligence. I never got any vibe that they are necessarily more intelligent than humans. Charismatic and wise, sure. Intelligent? Not really.

Beauty is not Charisma. Charisma is the ability to influence people; to be a leader; to successfully deceive or to intimidate; to give people an instant impression of likeability; and many other things.

Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) in Game of Thrones is probably the highest-Charisma character in the series, despite being the least elf-like. The audience LOVES him, and (despite his physical characteristics) he commands the attention (not all of it welcome) of powerful lords and stunning ladies. Same with Darryl in the Walking Dead - he's (apparently) fairly physically attractive, but he's not the strongest-willed character in the series, nor even a leader-type (in fact, he's explicitly Rick's henchman). But he's incredibly likeable. Same goes for Carol from Walking Dead. Immensely popular and charismatic character, but not conventionally beautiful.

Even if D&D elves were absolutely Tolkien elves, I would argue against Charisma. Unless we're talking Silmarillion era (e.g. 1st/2nd Age Noldor), the elves are a retiring people. They're trying to avoid getting involved in the affairs of Middle Earth. Elrond is respected, but he's clearly not leading the fight. Legolas is a follower. Neither is swaying the hearts and minds of the people. Sure, Galadriel is clearly Charisma-high (she ends up swaying even the suspicious Gimli). But she's an exception. The elves in the Hobbit are viewed with deep mistrust, and they don't do anything to win friends and influence the dwarves. Failed Charisma checks all around, during the dwarves' stay in the Elvenking's dungeons.

So: they're not leaders. They're not actively trying to influence others. They send the Prince of the Woodland Realm (Legolas, one of the highest ranking elven nobility) along with the fellowship to take orders from Gandalf (roving wizard) and Aragorn (penniless wanderer). Even Boromir likely has higher Charisma than Legolas, as a leader of men and Captain of Gondor.

Even if D&D Elves == Tolkien Elves, they're not getting the Charisma bonuses. Sure, Dexterity... they are master archers, graceful beyond mortal capability, running lightly on top of snow. And, yes, I'd give them either Intelligence or Wisdom. Once you've lived a thousand years, you've forgotten more things than a human will ever learn in their lifetime.
 


Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
I never got any vibe that they are necessarily more intelligent than humans. Charismatic and wise, sure. Intelligent? Not really.

You need to read more Tolkien. :) His elves are portrayed as master smiths, healers, artisans, composers and builders. Their civilization is the height of craftsmanship, learning and enlightenment. Tolkien elves are loremasters without peer. An elf forged the Rings of Power. An argument can be made for Int to be the primary (+2) with Dex the secondary (+1).

But I hear you on the Charisma thing, too. His elves are portrayed as astoundingly empathic, intimidating, infectiously mirthful. Heck, Tolkien elves should probably get +2 to all stats.

D&D has a tradition of a bunch of elf races. Feel free to create one with a stat bonus array more to your liking.
 

Nivenus

First Post
Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) in Game of Thrones is probably the highest-Charisma character in the series, despite being the least elf-like. The audience LOVES him, and (despite his physical characteristics) he commands the attention (not all of it welcome) of powerful lords and stunning ladies. Same with Darryl in the Walking Dead - he's (apparently) fairly physically attractive, but he's not the strongest-willed character in the series, nor even a leader-type (in fact, he's explicitly Rick's henchman). But he's incredibly likeable. Same goes for Carol from Walking Dead. Immensely popular and charismatic character, but not conventionally beautiful.

These are all very good examples of people who aren't necessarily beautiful (in the conventional sense) but who are pretty charismatic regardless. Tyrion's probably the best, particularly in the books, where he's disfigured in addition to being a dwarf (which already penalizes him enough in Westeros' society) but still manages to talk his way into and out of all kinds of perilous situations. Indeed, it's arguable that insofar as D&D stats are concerned Tyrion might have a higher Charisma score than either of his siblings, despite the fact that they're both much more beautiful than him.
 

Stalker0

Legend
You need to read more Tolkien. :) His elves are portrayed as master smiths, healers, artisans, composers and builders. Their civilization is the height of craftsmanship, learning and enlightenment. Tolkien elves are loremasters without peer. An elf forged the Rings of Power. An argument can be made for Int to be the primary (+2) with Dex the secondary (+1).

To be fair, Tolkien elves are just straight up better than everything around them. They should come with +2 to most stats, and probably a few levels while you are at it.

My take...if you want to go with +cha elves, there is plenty of flavor justification for it to make sense, but not so much that I feel the current stats are "wrong". So feel free to change it if you like it.
 

I like the idea of allowing Charismatic Elves.

However, why not go further? Instead of hard coding, why not soft code? Keep the various numerical bonuses for all races, but decouple them from a specific stat?

So, your elf could have +2 to Charisma or +2 to Wisdom or +2 to any other stat. In addition, a High Elf or a Wood Elf would have an additional +1 to any stat.

Essentially, this could be done, anyway, using the point buy method (especially if the 5E Point Buy table were extended to allow purchase of scores above 15) by just buying a lower score in Dex and buying a higher score in Charisma (for your Elven Sorcerer).
 
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