D&D 5E Elves, Wizards, Sorcerers, Charisma

[Mr Fixit]

Musing on ability bonuses for various races, I asked myself: "Why don't elves--except for the drow, that is--have increased Charisma?"

Right there in the second paragraph of their PHB entry, not counting the in-fiction excerpt, it says: "With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races." Primarily based upon Tolkien's elves, where they are described as beautiful and exceptionally strong-willed, it seems high Charisma would be a pretty natural fit for a D&D elf. Certainly more so than, say, Intelligence. I never got any vibe that they are necessarily more intelligent than humans. Charismatic and wise, sure. Intelligent? Not really.

Thus I pondered upon this topic of utmost importance for many a long minute and came to realise that it was done to preserve the elves' wizardry angle. For reasons of mechanical balance, they can't have bonuses to DEX and CHA, and WIS/INT to boot. Since they've been described from the early days of D&D as powerful mages, it's expected that they should have a bonus to INT (high elves at least). Thing is, that seems like a relic of past editions--pre-3E in fact-- when the only arcane magic option was the wizard. Now, with warlocks, sorcerers, and full caster bards, I don't think there's that much of a need to emphasise a wizarding elf.

On the contrary, they are described as inherently magical. Every high elf knows a cantrip. Magic is in their blood. Doesn't that sound a bit sorcerous? And lo and behold, Charisma is just the needed stat to make a great sorcerer! But why stop there? Elves, with their fey ancestry and mystical bonds with nature would lore-wise make for great warlocks with Archfey patrons, wouldn't they? And what of bards? Elves have long been great bards of D&D fiction, what with their famous ballads and delicate poetry. And valour bards seem like a pretty good fit for the feel of the classic elven bladesinger. All of those classes work with Charisma as the primary stat.

So, what do would you think of a little bit of elf rejiggering? I'm not entirely sure how to do it, though. Got any good ideas? I'm uncertain how to reconcile their high agility with the need for higher charisma without making them overpowered or underpowered with regards to some popular builds.

Instead of +2 DEX, how about +1 DEX? Then, for High Elves +2 CHA and for Wood Elves +1 DEX (for a total of +2) and +1 WIS (making them essentially unchanged).

 

[DracoSuave]

High elves get their cantrip through a long life of studying that magic, which is why it is based on their intellect and has to be a wizard cantrip. They have no inherent talent for rejiggering magic as it is cast, no relation to dragons, and the notion of wild-magic seems to be counteractive to a long lived race built around tradition and consistancy.

High elves don't have a hard force of personality inbred into them. That's not their thing. They're a far more cerebral race.

Charisma-based races are much more impulsive than normal, and that leads them to forms of magic that are based on intuition and impulsiveness.

High elves are methodical, on the other hand. Measured. Take their time. Come to the right decision... eventually. Impulsiveness doesn't lean well to their natural proclivities. Even their art is measured, honed, perfected. They're too focused on perfection to embrace the charisma-based magical disciplines.

Think in terms of blue magic vs red magic in M:tG. High Elves are blue, drow are on the redder side of black.

 

[Nivenus]

The other thing is that appearance and charisma have been strongly divorced from one another for a long time. Elves are almost always described as beautiful and tieflings are often described as "odd" or sometimes even "disfigured" but the latter gets a charisma bonus (3e being the sole exception) while the former gets an intelligence bonus.

Charisma's probably the most ambiguous of the six ability score in D&D (though Wisdom's kind of nebulous as well). At times it stands in for charm and social grace. At other times it's willpower or moxie. Occasionally (though more rarely these days) it represents attractiveness. But it's not any one of these things 100%.

 

[TerraDave]

arrogance can often undercut charm

 

[Lancelot]

Primarily based upon Tolkien's elves, where they are described as beautiful and exceptionally strong-willed, it seems high Charisma would be a pretty natural fit for a D&D elf. Certainly more so than, say, Intelligence. I never got any vibe that they are necessarily more intelligent than humans. Charismatic and wise, sure. Intelligent? Not really.

Beauty is not Charisma. Charisma is the ability to influence people; to be a leader; to successfully deceive or to intimidate; to give people an instant impression of likeability; and many other things.

Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) in Game of Thrones is probably the highest-Charisma character in the series, despite being the least elf-like. The audience LOVES him, and (despite his physical characteristics) he commands the attention (not all of it welcome) of powerful lords and stunning ladies. Same with Darryl in the Walking Dead - he's (apparently) fairly physically attractive, but he's not the strongest-willed character in the series, nor even a leader-type (in fact, he's explicitly Rick's henchman). But he's incredibly likeable. Same goes for Carol from Walking Dead. Immensely popular and charismatic character, but not conventionally beautiful.

Even if D&D elves were absolutely Tolkien elves, I would argue against Charisma. Unless we're talking Silmarillion era (e.g. 1st/2nd Age Noldor), the elves are a retiring people. They're trying to avoid getting involved in the affairs of Middle Earth. Elrond is respected, but he's clearly not leading the fight. Legolas is a follower. Neither is swaying the hearts and minds of the people. Sure, Galadriel is clearly Charisma-high (she ends up swaying even the suspicious Gimli). But she's an exception. The elves in the Hobbit are viewed with deep mistrust, and they don't do anything to win friends and influence the dwarves. Failed Charisma checks all around, during the dwarves' stay in the Elvenking's dungeons.

So: they're not leaders. They're not actively trying to influence others. They send the Prince of the Woodland Realm (Legolas, one of the highest ranking elven nobility) along with the fellowship to take orders from Gandalf (roving wizard) and Aragorn (penniless wanderer). Even Boromir likely has higher Charisma than Legolas, as a leader of men and Captain of Gondor.

Even if D&D Elves == Tolkien Elves, they're not getting the Charisma bonuses. Sure, Dexterity... they are master archers, graceful beyond mortal capability, running lightly on top of snow. And, yes, I'd give them either Intelligence or Wisdom. Once you've lived a thousand years, you've forgotten more things than a human will ever learn in their lifetime.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Elves: marked up for beauty, marked down for haughtiness, boorishness, and a general superiority complex. They're lucky they don't have a CHA penalty.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I never got any vibe that they are necessarily more intelligent than humans. Charismatic and wise, sure. Intelligent? Not really.

You need to read more Tolkien. His elves are portrayed as master smiths, healers, artisans, composers and builders. Their civilization is the height of craftsmanship, learning and enlightenment. Tolkien elves are loremasters without peer. An elf forged the Rings of Power. An argument can be made for Int to be the primary (+2) with Dex the secondary (+1).

But I hear you on the Charisma thing, too. His elves are portrayed as astoundingly empathic, intimidating, infectiously mirthful. Heck, Tolkien elves should probably get +2 to all stats.

D&D has a tradition of a bunch of elf races. Feel free to create one with a stat bonus array more to your liking.

 

[Nivenus]

Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) in Game of Thrones is probably the highest-Charisma character in the series, despite being the least elf-like. The audience LOVES him, and (despite his physical characteristics) he commands the attention (not all of it welcome) of powerful lords and stunning ladies. Same with Darryl in the Walking Dead - he's (apparently) fairly physically attractive, but he's not the strongest-willed character in the series, nor even a leader-type (in fact, he's explicitly Rick's henchman). But he's incredibly likeable. Same goes for Carol from Walking Dead. Immensely popular and charismatic character, but not conventionally beautiful.

These are all very good examples of people who aren't necessarily beautiful (in the conventional sense) but who are pretty charismatic regardless. Tyrion's probably the best, particularly in the books, where he's disfigured in addition to being a dwarf (which already penalizes him enough in Westeros' society) but still manages to talk his way into and out of all kinds of perilous situations. Indeed, it's arguable that insofar as D&D stats are concerned Tyrion might have a higher Charisma score than either of his siblings, despite the fact that they're both much more beautiful than him.

 

[Stalker0]

You need to read more Tolkien. His elves are portrayed as master smiths, healers, artisans, composers and builders. Their civilization is the height of craftsmanship, learning and enlightenment. Tolkien elves are loremasters without peer. An elf forged the Rings of Power. An argument can be made for Int to be the primary (+2) with Dex the secondary (+1).

To be fair, Tolkien elves are just straight up better than everything around them. They should come with +2 to most stats, and probably a few levels while you are at it.

My take...if you want to go with +cha elves, there is plenty of flavor justification for it to make sense, but not so much that I feel the current stats are "wrong". So feel free to change it if you like it.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I like the idea of allowing Charismatic Elves.

However, why not go further? Instead of hard coding, why not soft code? Keep the various numerical bonuses for all races, but decouple them from a specific stat?

So, your elf could have +2 to Charisma or +2 to Wisdom or +2 to any other stat. In addition, a High Elf or a Wood Elf would have an additional +1 to any stat.

Essentially, this could be done, anyway, using the point buy method (especially if the 5E Point Buy table were extended to allow purchase of scores above 15) by just buying a lower score in Dex and buying a higher score in Charisma (for your Elven Sorcerer).

 

[Nivenus]

Probably worth mentioning that Charisma heavy elves do exist in 5e; they're drow .

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Half elves get a charisma bonus which doesn't necessarily make sense from a genetic standpoint. But it fills the fey charmer niche.

 

[1of3]

I think the grace part is well covered with Dexterity. And being graceful and beautiful doesn't make you a people person.

In 3.x Unapproachable East for Forgotten Realms, there were Star Elves who featured a Cha bonus, though. Converting them to 5e might get you:

Star Elf
[*] +1 Cha
[*] Weapon Proficiency: Short and Long Swords
[*] Artistic: You are proficient with a musical instrument or crafting tool of your choice.
[*] Melee weapons you wield count as magical.

 

[DammitVictor]

Just want to note that I agree with you, that Elves have always struck me as more charismatic and wise than intelligent and that they are better suited to the Charisma-based spellcasting classes-- but Wild Mage doesn't suit them well, I'm leery of Elven Paladins (except Oath of the Ancients), and downright hate the notion of Elven Clerics.

 

[Lrdroland]

So, your elf could have +2 to Charisma or +2 to Wisdom or +2 to any other stat. In addition, a High Elf or a Wood Elf would have an additional +1 to any stat.

I have noticed there is no +2 Wisdom modifiers would allowing this break something or is it more because wisdom is mostly even through out all races?

 

[GreenTengu]

If Elven stats had to meet their fluff, they would probably require a +2 to every stat except Strength and Constitution. Those might only get a +1.

In order to make the races balanced, at some point one has to consider which of the attributes its concept supports more....

Actually though... to be honest? Maybe Elves should be +2 Charisma and not +2 Dexterity. I just don't see Elves as being as Dexterous as Halflings or Goblins.

 

[Kalshane]

If Elven stats had to meet their fluff, they would probably require a +2 to every stat except Strength and Constitution. Those might only get a +1.

In order to make the races balanced, at some point one has to consider which of the attributes its concept supports more....

Actually though... to be honest? Maybe Elves should be +2 Charisma and not +2 Dexterity. I just don't see Elves as being as Dexterous as Halflings or Goblins.

That's an interesting thought. I'd leave Wood elves with the higher Dexterity bonus, but I could easily see High Elves being +2 Charisma, +1 Dexterity and Gray Elves (to bring them back into the equation from pre-4E) being +2 Int, +1 Dex.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think one could make a strong academic argument that all Save DCs should be based on Cha, regardless of your magical tradition.

As for Elves, more Cha and more mechanics that depend on Cha "feels" very Fey to me. Not that all (or any) elves necessarily needs to feel Fey, but D&D elves feel much less Fey than even Tolkien. IMHO, of course.

(I was toying with that idea spellcasting DCs should all be Cha based for a 3eish houserule, as a means of making the one stat super high be not being so hyper optimal. Do you want bonus spells or high DC?)

 

[GreenTengu]

That's an interesting thought. I'd leave Wood elves with the higher Dexterity bonus, but I could easily see High Elves being +2 Charisma, +1 Dexterity and Gray Elves (to bring them back into the equation from pre-4E) being +2 Int, +1 Dex.

I really think Wood Elves being +2 Charisma, +1 Dexterity and High Elves being +2 Charisma, +1 Intelligence really fits them better.
I don't really see Wood Elves doing acrobatics through the air, doing a lot of tumbling, being particularly good at thievery... I mean, generally speaking, outside of ranged attacks with a bow and stealth, what it is about High Elves that is particularly Dexterous.
In fact, while on that note, I am not even sure what part Dexterity plays in aiming with bows. Isn't perception far more important which is reliant on Wisdom?

Now, you could say that they live in the woods and get on with the wild life which shows high survival skills as well as keen senses (though that is covered) which also reflects Wisdom, but then... Goblins have all those things in the fluff, though stats never reflect it, and no one is volunteering them for high Wisdom.


As I said originally, if Elves were to be given stats to meet their fluff then they would get a bonus to all stats. They just would. But neither with Wood Elves nor High Elves does it strike me that their Dexterity has ever been their primary superhuman ability any more so than any of the other attributes despite it being the traditional stat that has always been raised for them.

Instead, it strikes me that the biggest superhuman ability Elves have is causing everyone else to be in awe of them and totally convinced of their superiority and perfection.... and add to this that it is the only race, the ONLY race in which no member of the race at any time has ever been described by damn near anyone as "ugly" and that in and of itself may well be the true single defining characteristic across all Elves, and I really do see Charisma being the primary ability score that should be boosted on any sort of Elf.

 

[Mr Fixit]

Thanks for all the replies; I see this is a contentious idea. I appreciate the view that elves shouldn't have a CHA bonus, especially those very well-argued, like Lancelot's.

However, I still stand by my impression that CHA-based spellcasting classes are a better fit for elves than scholarly and bookish wizards. Not to say there aren't any elven wizards, of course, but an "innately magical" race is bound to include quite a lot of those "innately magical" sorcerers. And when it comes right down to it, and this is just my own world-building preference, I've always disliked the notion of a wizarding elf, ever since 3E introduced sorcerers into the mix.

Those pesky humans that tend to breed in prodigious numbers whenever you're not looking (and gods help us, even sometimes when you are) and all collectively exclaiming "oooh, what does this button do"? Now that's a proper wizard! And these pointy-eared green-blooded inhuman... wait... wrong movie... Ahem, so, these prancing elves with their inborn magic and precious nature and special snowflake syndrome? I want them to be sorcerers. And I want them to be warlocks, too. And they are getting that cursed charisma bonus, if that's the last thing I do.