D&D 5E Elves, Wizards, Sorcerers, Charisma

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I wrote, previously, "So, your elf could have +2 to Charisma or +2 to Wisdom or +2 to any other stat. In addition, a High Elf or a Wood Elf would have an additional +1 to any stat."

To which you replied...

I have noticed there is no +2 Wisdom modifiers would allowing this break something or is it more because wisdom is mostly even through out all races?

I think as long as the hard cap of 20 was left intact, it would likely be OK. Might also want to specify that the +2 and the +1 from race and sub-race cannot apply to the same score.

My reason in suggesting it is that I don't like seeing players pick a race solely based upon stat bonuses. I feel that soft-coding, rather than hard-coding the racial stat bonuses would encourage players to play the race they want the way they want. To me, PCs are as often about breaking racial stereotypes as they are about embodying racial stereotypes. So, while I'm fine with having the fluff and the mechanics match for most NPCs, I'm also fine with exceptions to the rule, too.

 

[shamsael]

They did pretty much the same thing to the Gnome in 3.5e (but not 3e). It must not have went over well, because the 3.5e Charisma/Bard Gnome seems to be gone.

 

[Lrdroland]

Wood Elves have to be some of the most uncharismatic people. They are standoffish and literally want to be left alone by all. They don't use diplomacy or any form of persuasion other than intimidation. Why would they get +2 to CHA? Just because you look good doesn't mean you are charismatic. It is usually one piece of the whole, but by and far not the whole thing.

And to not being dexterous, Wood Elves in my opinion use tons of acrobatics and stealth and they are great with a bow. Add for the fact that they historically choose lighter armor so they can move around better and I feel +2 DEX is way up there alley.

 

[TrippyHippy]

These are all very good examples of people who aren't necessarily beautiful (in the conventional sense) but who are pretty charismatic regardless. Tyrion's probably the best, particularly in the books, where he's disfigured in addition to being a dwarf (which already penalizes him enough in Westeros' society) but still manages to talk his way into and out of all kinds of perilous situations. Indeed, it's arguable that insofar as D&D stats are concerned Tyrion might have a higher Charisma score than either of his siblings, despite the fact that they're both much more beautiful than him.

Tyrion manages to talk his way out of dangerous situations because he is witty (and wealthy!) and above all, SMART! This is a sign of Intelligence not innate Charisma which, as you point out, he is disadvantaged in.

 

[GreenTengu]

Wood Elves have to be some of the most uncharismatic people. They are standoffish and literally want to be left alone by all. They don't use diplomacy or any form of persuasion other than intimidation. Why would they get +2 to CHA? Just because you look good doesn't mean you are charismatic. It is usually one piece of the whole, but by and far not the whole thing.

And to not being dexterous, Wood Elves in my opinion use tons of acrobatics and stealth and they are great with a bow. Add for the fact that they historically choose lighter armor so they can move around better and I feel +2 DEX is way up there alley.

If you were creating a game where you wanted to use an NPC who would ask the PCs to do something-- as a favor, maybe not even offering gold-- and you wanted to be pretty certain that the PC party would be willing to do the favor, which of these would you use?

1) A middle-aged human serf who is quick to make light of their own tragedies for amusement.
2) An wrinkled, white-haired Gnomish professor (or Kobold storyteller) who prattles on endlessly about his own past adventures and is incapable of being quiet for more than 20 seconds.
3) A creepy looking Tiefling or Drow spell-caster who always speaks in a hoarse whispery voice and who remains tense at all times.
4) A drunken Dwarf with a short temper always exploding and shouting about something regarding "Moridan" that you can hardly make out.
5) A happy-go-lucky Halfling (or Goblin) who seems to be flat out manic and always in a cheery and delighted mood regardless of what is going on around him. Just all smiles and "I love you, you love me, we're a happy familiy!"
6) An angry and fearsomely large and overbearing (Half-)Orc, Hobgoblin or Dragonborn who always seems to be about three seconds from smashing your head into a wall for the fun of it.
7) A dispassionate, youthful-looking Wood Elf who has a hundred years of experience and wisdom with the body that belongs on a fashion magazine with the same pouty lips and lazed, aloof demeanor that every model in every picture in those magazines gives.

Which of those do you think is going to get most PCs to do favors for them for free? Because that's the one that deserves the charisma boost.

 

[Kalshane]

I've always seen Wood Elves are surly and antagonistic (for elves) so I really don't see them getting a Charisma bonus. They're the crazy sneaking through the woods, leaping from tree to tree, shooting bows with deadly accuracy types. Dex and Wisdom are the way to go for them.

It's a shame Sorcerer in 5E defaults to either Dragon or Wild Mage. Hopefully there will be more bloodlines coming down the pike (in the meantime I'll likely convert some from Pathfinder, with Arcane and Fey being my first priorities.) I see the "innately magical" High Elves as more Fey or Arcane-blooded Sorcerers than wizards. The Gray elves have always been the logical, wizardly types in my games.

 

[Nivenus]

Tyrion manages to talk his way out of dangerous situations because he is witty (and wealthy!) and above all, SMART! This is a sign of Intelligence not innate Charisma which, as you point out, he is disadvantaged in.

In certain rulesets maybe, but not in D&D. In D&D, all of the chief persuasion skills are Charisma based and Tyrion is a naturally skilled diplomat (Diplomacy/Persuasion), liar (Bluff/Deception), and bully (Intimidate). His intelligence is plenty high too, but despite his appearance he actually is quite charismatic. The main reason people don't like him is because of their cultural disposition towards hating the deformed, rather than because of any innate lack for charm on his part.

 

[Mr Fixit]

In certain rulesets maybe, but not in D&D. In D&D, all of the chief persuasion skills are Charisma based and Tyrion is a naturally skilled diplomat (Diplomacy/Persuasion), liar (Bluff/Deception), and bully (Intimidate).

Heh. He's even worse (better?) in the books. If I remember correctly, there's a particularly gross bluff/intimidation on his part where he threatens Cersei that he'll have Tommen (his little nephew) raped.

His intelligence is plenty high too, but despite his appearance he actually is quite charismatic. The main reason people don't like him is because of their cultural disposition towards hating the deformed, rather than because of any innate lack for charm on his part.

This may be another instance of books and the show diverging a bit. In the show I'd agree Tyrion is really charismatic and affable, but he's significantly darker in the text, often prone to bouts of spite, envy, and self-pity. So, book-Tyrion doesn't exactly merit as high a Charisma score as his on-screen counterpart.

 

[Nivenus]

This may be another instance of books and the show diverging a bit. In the show I'd agree Tyrion is really charismatic and affable, but he's significantly darker in the text, often prone to bouts of spite, envy, and self-pity. So, book-Tyrion doesn't exactly merit as high a Charisma score as his on-screen counterpart.

Oh yeah, Tyrion's definitely a rougher, darker character in the books (although they've begun to demonstrate a bit more of that in the show now). I'm not sure whether that relates to his Charisma though: he still manages to talk himself out of some pretty dire situations and there's nothing to say self-pitying and spiteful characters can't be charismatic.

 

[Mr Fixit]

Oh yeah, Tyrion's definitely a rougher, darker character in the books (although they've begun to demonstrate a bit more of that in the show now). I'm not sure whether that relates to his Charisma though: he still manages to talk himself out of some pretty dire situations and there's nothing to say self-pitying and spiteful characters can't be charismatic.

True. I'd say INT 18, WIS 9, CHA 16.