D&D 5E Discussion, Level 20 abilities, does it matter if they are overpowered?

[transtemporal]

I like that you followed the general path "pattern" (3rd attack power, 6th defensive power, 10th utility power, 14th attack power) and I like the flavor but sorry dude, you're using the flavor to justify that its way overpowered.

For example, your 3rd level power (which I'm assuming is only while raging) grants a flat 6.5 bonus dmg per attack action - the comparable Frenzy power has to use his bonus action to obtain an extra weapon attack and for that he gets a level of exhaustion at the end of his rage (which takes a long rest to get rid of).

In addition, your aura does 2d6 to all foes in 5' and you don't have to take an action to do it. For comparison, the 20th level paladin ability Holy Nimbus does 10 radiant damage within 30'. "Yes, but mines only 5' the paladins is 30'! lol" to which I reply "2d6 is a heck of a lot more dmg to creatures at 3rd level than 10 is to creatures at 20 and the paladin only gets this ability at 20, you get it at level 3!"

Basically you want to avoid the situation where any reasonable person would say "Why bother building any other melee DPR character class, when this one is obviously superior to everything else in the game?"

 

[Evenglare]

Thanks for the tips guys (even though that wasn't the point of the topic) I took out the aura and added exhaustion to even it out. Now back to level 20 discussion thanks.

 

[Chocolategravy]

Hard to say the 20th abilities are overpowered. A fighter is far FAR better off taking 2 or 3 levels of barbarian than getting their 20th level. Same with monks, paladins, rangers and rogues. Advantage on any attack you want, advantage on dex saves, half damage on attacks and if you go for 3 levels you can grant advantage to allies or get a bonus action attack or half damage against everything. A lot of classes are pretty heavily front loaded and MCing is almost always a better choice than going all the way to 20.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I think it all depends on how rare a 20th level character is in your campaign. Using the old 2.5e "Players Option: High Level Campaigns" book as a guideline, it sets an 18th level character per 1 million people. Figure...a 20th level character per 2 million people and with Forgotten Realms total 'world' population (counrties) sitting at around...what, 40 million?), that gives you 20 characters of 20th level. I don't see that as a problem. However, if you have 20th level being 'common' for most movers and shakers of the world (re: top NPC's, guild leaders, army generals, lords/ladies, etc)...then yeah, probably overpowered.

It's the old "high level NPC asks you to risk almost certain death...for something they could do by themselves over their lunch break" problem. I don't know about other people's campaigns, but in mine, high level characters do use their abilities to solve problems; be those problems "a god is trying to destroy reality", or "a small group of bandits are harassing nearby farmers on their way to market". A 20th level character should be the equivalent of a modern day billionaire genius with a small army (including a tactical nuke or two) at his disposal....with diplomatic immunity to ALL countries. Put five of those guys on a task and it will pretty much get done. Multiplie that 5-man team by too many and you have the World of Synnibarr.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

PS: I like Synnibarr, by the way. I've ran it multiple times, for 'mini-campaigns'. A very fun game...if you go into it with the right attitude (which includes the ability to read a description of, say, a normal Shark and discover that all sharks have the natural ability to shapechange into human form...just blink in astonishment once or twice, sigh deeply, smile, and say Huh, yup. Makes perfect sense. What's the problem?).

 

[Nachti]

Dunno why you all think that a 20 moon druid is OP.

Surely, he can shapeshift to regain hitpoints and cast spells but thats it.

His combat stats are weak compared to other level 20 chars.

20 Druid (Earth Elementar): AC 17, +8 Hit, 2 Attacks, 126 HP
20 Fighter(Plate+3, Sword +3): AC 21 or highter, +14 Hit, 4 Attacks, 200-300 HP
Not to mention items like adamantite armor...

 

[Li Shenron]

Basically you want to avoid the situation where any reasonable person would say "Why bother building any other melee DPR character class, when this one is obviously superior to everything else in the game?"

But the point really is what do you want the 20th-level or 21+level game to be.

Camp #1: "we want the 20th-level game to be the same, because the game isn't finished yet, and 20th is just another level before 21st"

Camp #2: "we want the 20th-level game to be different, because this is the endgame level, or if there is anything beyond then it's another game altogether"

If you're in camp #1 then DPR melee characters are important for you because you still want to have game (incl. combat) work roughly the same as before, and if it doesn't then it's a flaw.

But for some people in camp #2, game (incl. combat) working the same as before is the flaw.

 

[transtemporal]

But the point really is what do you want the 20th-level or 21+level game to be.

Camp #1: "we want the 20th-level game to be the same, because the game isn't finished yet, and 20th is just another level before 21st"

Camp #2: "we want the 20th-level game to be different, because this is the endgame level, or if there is anything beyond then it's another game altogether"

I kinda get the sense you're taking a subtle swipe at me here.

Are you saying you want different mechanics or different story at high level? Because story is easy to change and it changes the character of the game. But the mechanics are the mechanics and the rules as they stand at the moment don't support the type of game you want for camp 2. Unless you're saying you're aware of some impending WotC epic release that radically changes the high-level game?

 

[Li Shenron]

I kinda get the sense you're taking a subtle swipe at me here.

No, not at all!

Just a reminder that different people have opposite ideas of what "epic" levels should be, but mostly fall into those 2 camps. So sometimes we suggest things that are perfect for one camp but just don't make sense for the other because they defy its purpose...

So for camp #2 indeed the mechanics of levels 1-20 don't work. But that doesn't mean that camp #2 is wrong.

 

[transtemporal]

No, not at all!

Just a reminder that different people have opposite ideas of what "epic" levels should be, but mostly fall into those 2 camps. So sometimes we suggest things that are perfect for one camp but just don't make sense for the other because they defy its purpose...

So for camp #2 indeed the mechanics of levels 1-20 don't work. But that doesn't mean that camp #2 is wrong.

Lol, sorry man, my bad.

I absolute agree that the epic game should be different and camp 2 is perfectly valid. I wish that dnd was as conducive to epic play as Amber or Unknown Armies or even Dresden Files... but its not. Fundamentally DnD is a game where you start off with numbers and as you level, you get bigger numbers. And you pit your numbers against your opponents numbers. Thats not likely to change when you get to 20 unless you're playing a very different game.