D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[Dausuul]

Or, if you're a real jerk-type DM, impose the surprised condition on the round the archers fire, and the melee guys already engaged suddenly become MUCH more effective - the targets can't react and can't take actions.

As others have already pointed out, this logic leads to absurd conclusions. If I were at a table where the DM ruled this way, my response would be to make a warlock with Pact of the Chain and a sprite familiar. The sprite would accompany the party invisibly at all times, thus guaranteeing that we would get surprise in every encounter, even if we began that encounter by walking straight up to the enemy in full view.

 

[BoldItalic]

My suggestion: forget surprise.

Everyone can act on the first round in initiative order but the DM doesn't reveal the archers until their turn comes up and they attack. That way, the players are surprised.

You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of this encounter? Is it to damage the PCs and drain them of healing (so it's a kind of trap) or is it to teach the players not to underestimate confrontations? To encourage them to negotiate rather than attacking? To unsettle them?

 

[Quickleaf]

My suggestion: forget surprise.

Everyone can act on the first round in initiative order but the DM doesn't reveal the archers until their turn comes up and they attack. That way, the players are surprised.

You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of this encounter? Is it to damage the PCs and drain them of healing (so it's a kind of trap) or is it to teach the players not to underestimate confrontations? To encourage them to negotiate rather than attacking? To unsettle them?

I like the direction you took it in, mate!

To clarify my objectives: I want to portray convincing challenging opposition. I have no agenda for "teaching" the players anything (indeed, such a style of DMing is anathema to my own). Perhaps a bit more information is in order, since the scenario is a complicated...

SPOILER: Spell & Crossbones players, avert yer eyes, me hearties! Or it'll be Davey Jones locker for ye!

I have a group of pirates led by 2 tentatively allied minor villains (seawolf & spy) preparing a dual-pronged approach: The seawolf will lead the majority of pirates to confront the PCs directly, requesting that they turn information and one of the PCs over. The spy will take a small number of pirates with muskets into the woods where they hide very well (thanks to a special group stealth ability of the spy & high pre-rolled Stealth check).

My purposes in running this encounter are (a) to reveal that some of the PC's enemies are on to them, (b) present the opposition in a challenging and credible way (this is always a goal of my DMing), and (c) guide a PC separate from the rest of the party back into the party as he has overheard the ambushers plotting and follows them.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm not sure which editions you're citing here. My experience has been with AD&D 1e. In that edition surprise did very much what it does in 5e. It kept the surprised party from acting for one or more segments (6 seconds) each of which was treated as an entire round for the purposes of the other party making attacks, taking actions, or whatever. Looking back at the OD&D rules, however, surprise gives the surprising party a round of extra attacks. In a simple situation these two systems would have essentially the same result: one side gets a turn and the other does not, but I tend to go with the AD&D explanations of the rules in general because I view that as a more fleshed out version of the game, giving more insight into the mind of its creator. I can see how the OD&D description may have influenced some of the later editions and given rise to alternate ways to apply surprise.

My D&D experience includes BD&D, a bit of 1e, lots of 2e, a bit of 3e, a significant amount of 4e, and now enjoying 5e

I want to clarify something, however. This is not about me wanting to "recreate" some "ideal" surprise rules from my "favorite" edition of D&D. Maybe my group's surprise round rules were house rules in some editions? I don't even remember exactly. If the similar craziness as I describe in post #53 (with 1 goblin rogue causing the PCs to be surprised & his 30 hobgoblin allies then getting to wail on the Surprised PCs the first round) would be possible in older editions, I would still have the same criticism.

By the by, I'd be curious to hear your reply about my example in post #53.

Does your reading of the rules imply that my interpretation would not be possible? For example, several folks have suggested that since the PCs are aware of the main force of bandits (pirates), then the smaller force cannot surprise the PCs; rather, they can only be hidden. Is that your contention?

Or do you actually believe that my example in post #53 makes sense narratively? That being surprised should allow any number of non-ambushers to wail on the surprised character that first roundecause they are so discombobulated from the sniper fire?

If you're maintaining the later, well, I am bewildered. If the former, then I suppose it's really about a DM judgment call and not any clear cut rules.

Both of the above cited editions agree on one thing and that's that surprise is only possible if one side or the other is unaware of the presence of the other. Even if the "decoy bandits" can't actually see their colleagues hiding in the woods, I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that they are unaware of their presence. They are working in conjunction with one another after all! Twisting the rules in this way to ensure the outcome of archers firing but decoys not attacking while the PCs are surprised seems like some pretty desperate rules-lawyering.

Definitely not an argument I'm making. Perhaps you meant to reply to someone else?

 

[Hriston]

So your going to have the PCs shot at with muskets and you don't think they'd be surprised enough to cost them a round of actions?

 

[guachi]

Does your reading of the rules imply that my interpretation would not be possible? For example, several folks have suggested that since the PCs are aware of the main force of bandits (pirates), then the smaller force cannot surprise the PCs; rather, they can only be hidden. Is that your contention?

I'm not the person you are addressing, but it's a discussion forum, right?

I posted way back on the first page that I thought the PCs couldn't be surprised (mechanically) if they were approached by obviously hostile bandits. The key being "obviously hostile". I like Celtavians 4 point post a few pages back is about perfect. If the players give some indication they think something is up I'd allow them a Perception check to notice the archers or maybe an Insight check to determine if the bandits on the road have given the situation away.

Depending on the outcome of the roll, if any, I'd either grant surprise for the archers or simply have them fire at advantage. Even if they PCs were surprised I'd still roll initiative normally and not grant the bandits any modifiers or anything. Sure, they may know the ambush is coming, but the initiative roll determines how fast they react to things.

I'm still trying to come up with a way to determine if someone is surprised by an opponent they can see but don't know is an opponent yet. Because otherwise it makes an Assassin trying to assassinate someone with a melee weapon difficult. Like, impersonate someone and then stab them. Maybe an opposed Deception/Insight check?

 

[BoldItalic]

I like the direction you took it in, mate!

To clarify my objectives: I want to portray convincing challenging opposition. I have no agenda for "teaching" the players anything (indeed, such a style of DMing is anathema to my own). Perhaps a bit more information is in order, since the scenario is a complicated...

SPOILER: Spell & Crossbones players, avert yer eyes, me hearties! Or it'll be Davey Jones locker for ye!

I have a group of pirates led by 2 tentatively allied minor villains (seawolf & spy) preparing a dual-pronged approach: The seawolf will lead the majority of pirates to confront the PCs directly, requesting that they turn information and one of the PCs over. The spy will take a small number of pirates with muskets into the woods where they hide very well (thanks to a special group stealth ability of the spy & high pre-rolled Stealth check).

My purposes in running this encounter are (a) to reveal that some of the PC's enemies are on to them, (b) present the opposition in a challenging and credible way (this is always a goal of my DMing), and (c) guide a PC separate from the rest of the party back into the party as he has overheard the ambushers plotting and follows them.

Ah, so it's even more complicated, because now the detached PC is aware of the ambushers so if you try to apply surprise rules, he is not surprised but the ambushers could be (by him, assuming he is being successfully stealthy) as well as the main party being surprised by the ambushers except the ambushers can't act on the first round either because they are surprised too. It all falls apart, doesn't it?

 

[the Jester]

Does everyone agree now that "surprise round" = the first round, the only round in which a creature may be surprised?

Yes- except when circumstances warrant otherwise. And, yes, that's clearly in the realm of DM fiat, but that's what the DM is for.

You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of this encounter?

Speaking for myself, I rarely have a purpose in mind for an encounter. Encounters are encounters, to be navigated by the pcs in whatever way they see fit, with the logical consequences coming out of that (e.g. combat, new friends, delays on the road to Jerusalem, etc).

 

[Hriston]

I agree those are the rules, and [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] you said it well: surprised is treated as an almost condition.

However, applying that rule to all situations gives crazy results...

1 Goblin Rogue surprises the PCs, therefore his 30 Hobgoblin allies (who obviously failed to be disguised as human soldiers in heavy cloaks) get to take advantage of the PCs' surprised state and wail on them the first round of combat.

Thus, in most fights the ideal strategy is to have one Super-Stealth monster/NPC/PC surprise the enemy, while the rest of their allies just show up. It's practically a "Win" button, or at least a "Gain Devastating Advantage" button.

I wonder how you guys don't see this as crazy? Maybe you're looking at the OP example very differently?

I'll address this first since you asked. Yes, I believe that that the rules would allow this. If the goblin is successful in making a stealth check versus every PC's passive perception and then attacks them before their initiative count on the first round I'd say they were surprised allowing the hobgoblins to attack as well. There is no guarantee this strategy will work 100% of the time. It depends on the goblin's stealth check as well as initiative if the first round has already started. He could very well give himself away and even if he didn't, jumping out in front of a party of PCs capable of taking on 30 hobgoblins would amount to suicide. Do you usually run your monsters without any sense of self preservation?

Which brings me to my next point, even though I do think this is allowed by the rules, I don't think it's a good idea because it is meta gaming on the part of the DM. Also if your PCs can't survive a round of attacks from these hobgoblins, why did you throw that challenge at them? It certainly does seem unfair but not because the rules allow you to do it. It would just be irresponsible DMing. Your original scenario seems quite reasonable, but this one not so much.

 

[Quickleaf]

Ah, so it's even more complicated, because now the detached PC is aware of the ambushers so if you try to apply surprise rules, he is not surprised but the ambushers could be (by him, assuming he is being successfully stealthy) as well as the main party being surprised by the ambushers except the ambushers can't act on the first round either because they are surprised too. It all falls apart, doesn't it?

Haha, yes that about sums it up

I think there are two good ways to handle this scenario...

The first option is to use the Surprise Round in the sense of a special round at the start of combat (and not the 5e sense of "surprised" as a semi-condition). During this Surprise Round, the separate PC and the sniper NPCs would get to act, while the rest of the PCs and majority of the pirate NPCs would not.

The second option is to ignore surprise, handle initiative as normal, and just have the sniper NPCs begin hidden from the main PC party, but not from the separate PC.

Depending on how exactly the situation plays out, either of those seem like the best way to handle it.