D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah the first one in 5e is called the Battlemaster with the Rally, Distracting Strike, Goading attack... the Inspiring Leadership feat and so on...

yup... that was my maybe...

As to your second point, in 5e a fighter can be a caster...

yup... because for Hercules or odyssis or batman to be as cool as Gandalf or harry potter, they have to also cast spells

 

[BryonD]

yup... because for Hercules or odyssis or batman to be as cool as Gandalf or harry potter, they have to also cast spells

So we've devolved to simple non sequiturs now?

Because that is just an absurd leap. The fact that they CAN cast doesn't mean they "have to" cast. And I've not seen much complaint about the 5E fighter (sans eldritch knight)

Do you want to even try to find reasonable ground? Or are you just gonna through weak and futile slams at the latest edition? (Not questioning your right, by all means, continue to amuse me please)

 

[Imaro]

yup... because for Hercules or odyssis or batman to be as cool as Gandalf or harry potter, they have to also cast spells

No they don't have to... but in 5e the option is there...

But then again I don't think Hercules is renowned for his versatility in dealing with problems and Odysseys uses skill (which surprise, surprise 5e is the first edition to give fighters the same amount of skills as everyone else)... and Batman isn't a fighter... He's the DM's mary sue NPC that knows and can do everything.

 

[Sadras]

Also, I don't understand why the Basic PHB is not relevant. It is the most widely and easily available 4e core rulebook, and is intended to provide a player with everything s/he needs to play the game.

This is unbelievable, I just couldn't continue to read posts where you dismiss @Imaro's point. You attempt to discuss the differences/restrictions between the 2 editions and yet with purpose and repetitiveness your posts limit 5e's to the basic online format, ignoring 5e's core books and this then despite repeated attempts by @Imaro to remind you to look at 5e as a whole (as little as it is) in your comparisons and not restrict it to the online basic version. But what takes the cake is when you discuss 4e you like to incorporate

• All 4e's PHBs (three of them) including the HYBRID RULES;
• Essentials; and
• Supplement Books

So to recap,

You continuously pepper your posts with comments about hybrids and PHB's after the 1st

Not without going hybrid.

and

Using PHB 3 you could also make a hybrid ranger-rogue who uses DEX in melee and for archery.

And even throw in a 4e supplement book (good job)

Using Martial Power 2 you can also give your DEX-based ranger DEX-based melee ability.

and finally this nail-in-the-coffin comment to @Imaro funny enough...

I don't really get your argument. I don't see how Essentials is not relevant to a discussion of 4e - it is a major line of books for the edition.

So the basis of your comparison revolves around the entire run of 4e versus the 5e free online version. Yup, that seems right ????!!!!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

please reread this discussion, because somewhere you lost it...

in 4e could I make:

a warrior who was an archer: YES
a warrior who is quick and agle: YES
a warrior who could buff and heal: YES
a warrior as complex and powerful as any caster at above 1/2 way through max level: YES

in 5e can you make:

a warrior who was an archer: YES
a warrior who is quick and agle: YES
a warrior who could buff and heal: Maybe
a warrior as complex and powerful as any caster at above 1/2 way through max level: not on a bet


but 4e was the restrictive one ????

As to your second point, in 5e a fighter can be a caster...

yup... because for Hercules or odyssis or batman to be as cool as Gandalf or harry potter, they have to also cast spells

No they don't have to... but in 5e the option is there...

But then again I don't think Hercules is renowned for his versatility in dealing with problems and Odysseys uses skill (which surprise, surprise 5e is the first edition to give fighters the same amount of skills as everyone else)... and Batman isn't a fighter... He's the DM's mary sue NPC that knows and can do everything.

so to make sure that you reread it, let me recap... I said high level casters are still both more powerful and more complex then fighters, you responded that fighters can be casters, I pointed out that I wanted non casters as complex, and your answer makes no sense...


Odysseys, Conan, Batman, Hercules all use physical and mental abilities (you can call them skills, maneuvers, feats. talents, faints, powers) and routenly out play people with more(in the case of Hercules more in the others any is more) supernatural powers... but in D&D (extept 3.5 Bo9S, and 4e) that doesn't happen... there is no way to make an engaging option full complex non caster... it doesn't have to be a fighter (hell look at my orginal post in this string it says warrior).

 

[Imaro]

please reread this discussion, because somewhere you lost it...








so to make sure that you reread it, let me recap... I said high level casters are still both more powerful and more complex then fighters, you responded that fighters can be casters, I pointed out that I wanted non casters as complex, and your answer makes no sense...


Odysseys, Conan, Batman, Hercules all use physical and mental abilities (you can call them skills, maneuvers, feats. talents, faints, powers) and routenly out play people with more(in the case of Hercules more in the others any is more) supernatural powers... but in D&D (extept 3.5 Bo9S, and 4e) that doesn't happen... there is no way to make an engaging option full complex non caster... it doesn't have to be a fighter (hell look at my orginal post in this string it says warrior).

Dude my point was that I'm not going to sit here and continuously keep building stuff in 5e to counter each of your claims... go read the PHB and afterwards if you really believe that you can't create a non-caster with as much complexity as a caster (let's say a warlock), especially in play using maneuvers,feats, skills, etc... well I'll chalk that up to the fact that my creativity must be letting me see things you aren't and leave it at that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

in 4e could I make:

a warrior who was an archer: YES
a warrior who is quick and agle: YES
a warrior who could buff and heal: YES
a warrior as complex and powerful as any caster at above 1/2 way through max level: YES

The bolded line is a weird criteria to me. There are two ways to achieve it: make warriors complex, or make casters boring.

It's possible that 4E evolved eventually into "complex and interesting casters/complex and interesting warriors," but in the timeframe I experienced it, it was "boring/boring." Combat was intricate, but that's about it. Wizards didn't have Teleport Without Error or even Fabricate. Meanwhile, fighter-types were full of disassociated mechanics on arbitrary schedules. It was complex in the wrong ways, for me. That doesn't make 4E objectively bad, but here's my point: rather than using "warrior vs. wizard" as your criteria for "non-restrictive", a better criteria would be, "a warrior whose mechanics match the fiction I'm interested in playing."

Every game with structure is restrictive by definition. "Freedom" occurs when the restrictions align well with the things you didn't want to do anyway.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Odysseys, Conan, Batman, Hercules all use physical and mental abilities (you can call them skills, maneuvers, feats. talents, faints, powers) and routenly out play people with more(in the case of Hercules more in the others any is more) supernatural powers... but in D&D (extept 3.5 Bo9S, and 4e) that doesn't happen... there is no way to make an engaging option full complex non caster... it doesn't have to be a fighter (hell look at my orginal post in this string it says warrior).

I could understand if you were griping about Batman not having enough skills to represent him accurately, but not enough powers?

Let's say you're Hercules. You have one power: super strength. The DM gives you a task: clean the Augean Stables. Do you:

1.) Look down at dismay in your character sheet because you don't have any "cleaning" powers?
2.) Brainstorm ways to use your one power, super strength, in ways that will get you what you want?

#2 is what roleplaying games are all about, so it's hard to be sympathetic to this particular complaint. I do not want Hercules represented with a "divert river to clean out messy stable" power. Yuck. He doesn't need it.

And if you think Odysseus of all people needs "more powers" in order to be match the fiction, I'm afraid you have totally missed the point. All he needs is an Int of 16+, a magnetic personality, good diplo skills ( Insight/Perception/Deception), and a player to match. And, I guess, a really high Strength to string his bow for Penelope, but that's more aftermath than main story.

-Max

 

[Minigiant]

Well you gotta remember.

4e achieve equal complexity by taking all the all the noncombat magic away from spell, reduced caster slots, and put noncasters in the same system of gaining combat power.

A ranged defender wasn't possible in 4e. Not possible in d&d period. Defenders want the action near them.

In 4e, dex warriors were rogues. You could function as a defend a bit but finesse weapon weren't attention getters outside of backstabs and sneak attacks which required losing attention.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The bolded line is a weird criteria to me. There are two ways to achieve it: make warriors complex, or make casters boring.

I would much prefer to have a warrior non caster be more complex... I don't think that is too weird...

It's possible that 4E evolved eventually into "complex and interesting casters/complex and interesting warriors," but in the timeframe I experienced it, it was "boring/boring." Combat was intricate, but that's about it.

I don't know how long you stuck around, but the first bunch of splats (Arcane power and Martal power) did make both much more interesting, but even out of the gate day 1 we were playing very interesting games...

Wizards didn't have Teleport Without Error or even Fabricate. Meanwhile, fighter-types were full of disassociated mechanics on arbitrary schedules. It was complex in the wrong ways, for me.

ok... so just to double check... you don't like 4e then...

That doesn't make 4E objectively bad, but here's my point: rather than using "warrior vs. wizard" as your criteria for "non-restrictive", a better criteria would be, "a warrior whose mechanics match the fiction I'm interested in playing."

um... that may be better for you, but I can make any mechanics match any fiction so that wont work for me...

Every game with structure is restrictive by definition. "Freedom" occurs when the restrictions align well with the things you didn't want to do anyway.

yup... and since I want to do something that the system either can't, or atleast is hard to do, I find it restrictive...

I could understand if you were griping about Batman not having enough skills to represent him accurately, but not enough powers?

I don't care what lable you put on it... just thinks that allow me to have mechanics that totally match what I want to do...

Let's say you're Hercules. You have one power: super strength. The DM gives you a task: clean the Augean Stables. Do you:

1.) Look down at dismay in your character sheet because you don't have any "cleaning" powers?
2.) Brainstorm ways to use your one power, super strength, in ways that will get you what you want?

me myself... I probably if I have no mechanics to support a stunt I would most likely just say "Can I just skip this and say I did it"

#2 is what roleplaying games are all about, so it's hard to be sympathetic to this particular complaint.

so do the wizards players not role-play? do wizards having a list of mechanics that they can do harm there roleplaying? or is it only when I want a warrior to have such a list?

I do not want Hercules represented with a "divert river to clean out messy stable" power. Yuck. He doesn't need it.

what about a "Make major change to enviorment" power that COULD be used to divert a river, or make a door in a wall, or collapse a tunnel, or what ever...

Imagin this... you have a PC fighter at 4th level... he is a +2 to str race, and put a 16 in that stat, and at 4th level increased to 20... You tell him an army of orcs are going to invade the town, his answer is "I lift a big rock and divert the river flooding the plain they are on" what do you say?