D&D 5E Enhancing "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" (Practical stuff to try at your table!)

[sunrisekid]

So what did you do because of the "dissenting player"? What could have made the adventure better for him (or why was he dissatisfied in the first place)?

In that particular case I didn’t do anything beyond what was indicated in the episode guidelines. However, I later adjusted the remaining fights to reflect XP guidelines, effectively scaling down the fights.

(At the risk of going off-topic, we didn’t speak on the matter, but my hunch was that the player is averse to the notion that some combats should simply be retreated from. I see this as a trait of “newschool D&D”, starting in 3E, representing an important departure from earlier iterations of the game, in which retreating-or-dying was pretty common.)

While I enjoy running combats that tend to be deadly, one of my other players prefers the oppose - fighting only weak monsters for the thrill of feeling powerful. To that end, I’ve introduced more easy fights with cult minions and such.

@OP
You might also want to follow this thread once it gets some answers.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?413847-Are-HotDQ-Fights-Too-Deadly

Started by me, inspired by OP questions

 

[Derren]

In that particular case I didn’t do anything beyond what was indicated in the episode guidelines. However, I later adjusted the remaining fights to reflect XP guidelines, effectively scaling down the fights.

(At the risk of going off-topic, we didn’t speak on the matter, but my hunch was that the player is averse to the notion that some combats should simply be retreated from. I see this as a trait of “newschool D&D”, starting in 3E, representing an important departure from earlier iterations of the game, in which retreating-or-dying was pretty common.)

While I enjoy running combats that tend to be deadly, one of my other players prefers the oppose - fighting only weak monsters for the thrill of feeling powerful. To that end, I’ve introduced more easy fights with cult minions and such.

So isn't it a bit strange that most encounters in HotDQ are deadly and that some of them "should simply be retreated from" but the very start of the adventure expects you to do the exact opposite and instead go into a town under the attack by a vastly overpowering foe and even assumes (although not enforces) that the PCs attack said foe? Doesn't that send the wrong signal for the rest of the adventure?

 

[Tommy Brownell]

The PDF was already mentioned.
For the general plot problem one thing you should do is to shift the locations around the map so that the entire journey makes more sense than the round trip through the sword coast to come back right where you started. You still have the usual FR problem of "Why are the superpowers of the Realms not stopping the world threatening cult?". Although that is more a RoT problem.
As for the heroic stupid dragon charge, either leave out the dragon completely, it doesn't really add much to the encounter except for a bit of payback you can give it later or you start the raid only after the PCs are inside Greenest. That solution also helps with the first encounter in the adventure where a group of civilians insist that you escort them to safety "right into the center of fighting" instead of fleeing the town by the way you entered without trouble.

Two of my players know nothing about Forgotten Realms and one of my players just rolls with me as DM...in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, I've had "more powerful NPCs" laugh off the threat of the Cult, in preparation for the PCs finding one of those groups having been shredded apart for going in without backup like a typical D&D party. Waterdeep is also getting completely sacked in a brutal, dragon-led assault, which is what's going to bring the various factions and nations together to finally listen to Ontharr Frume and Leosin Erlanther.

I haven't read a Forgotten Realms book in ten years. The only canon that matters to us is what happens at the table.

And the PCs in our group all had reasons to go into Greenest, dragon or no. The Monk's family was part of the Cult until they were betrayed and executed almost to a man by Rezmir, Bog Luck and Frulam Mondath. The Barbarian came from an amazon barbarian tribe that served as smugglers for the Cult, and on her death bed, the Barbarian's mother begged her to redeem the tribe for her deeds. The Dragonborn Ranger had been saved from a raging mob by Leosin, who hid him at Candlekeep. Leosin sent a messenger asking for help, so he responded. Along the way into Greenest, they picked up a Halfling Warlock who just wants to see the entire Cult murdered, no matter what. They went into town regardless. Honor or vengeance wouldn't allow them not to.

Turns out, the Monk wound up leaping from the castle and onto the dragon's back, after they figured out the dragon's heart wasn't in the fight, and he convinced the dragon to abandon the fight. The dragon agreed, abandoning the attack to sleep, not liking Frulam Mondath anyway.

This is now one of the most memorable encounters this group of players has ever had. It also set the theme for this entire campaign early on: They have been slowly weaving alliances together and forging loyalties, while exploiting seams in the supposedly united Cult's allegiances and playing factions against each other.

This has proven to be a great campaign so far, in our experience (we just finished Hoard, and we are starting Rise in two weeks).

 

[Derren]

Turns out, the Monk wound up leaping from the castle and onto the dragon's back, after they figured out the dragon's heart wasn't in the fight, and he convinced the dragon to abandon the fight. The dragon agreed, abandoning the attack to sleep, not liking Frulam Mondath anyway.

Imo that should have killed him. Being not totally convinced to fight is one thing, but having a mortal jump on your back? Every arrogant evil dragon would shred someone who tried something like this.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

Imo that should have killed him. Being not totally convinced to fight is one thing, but having a mortal jump on your back? Every arrogant evil dragon would shred someone who tried something like this.

Sounds like we run different games then. My players enjoy my games. Hopefully your players enjoy yours. Not much else really matters.

 

[sunrisekid]

So isn't it a bit strange that most encounters in HotDQ are deadly and that some of them "should simply be retreated from" but the very start of the adventure expects you to do the exact opposite and instead go into a town under the attack by a vastly overpowering foe and even assumes (although not enforces) that the PCs attack said foe? Doesn't that send the wrong signal for the rest of the adventure?

The deeper issue that you point to, but do not state, is finding a sufficient reason for the *players* to be motivated to go into a village under attack by a dragon. Whereas establishing motive for *characters* can be relatively trivial (backgrounds, alignment, etc), which is clearly spelled out in the text, and which is expected to inform player decisions (which seasoned DMs know better than to expect ;-)

I had the characters start out in the town, at the tavern. With the village under rapid assault they had to decide what to do (save someone nearby, race to the keep, etc). Worked out well, but one player was keen to sneak out of town and flee, which is logical.

Establishing player motive is definitely tricky, and the end fight challenge in episdoe 1 is a risky way to establish Cyanwrath as a memorable foe - a game event that may just as easily result in resentment, the ultimate buzzkill.

 

[jayoungr]

The OP also doesn't want to hear that everything is fine even though it isn't.

Actually, the OP has already read lots of HotDQ-negative threads. I was hoping this would be more of a "cool practical stuff that people can try" thread than an "analyzing flaws in the adventure as written" thread.

Another potentially useful link: Help with HotDQ Chapter 4.

 

[jayoungr]

The deeper issue that you point to, but do not state, is finding a sufficient reason for the *players* to be motivated to go into a village under attack by a dragon. Whereas establishing motive for *characters* can be relatively trivial (backgrounds, alignment, etc), which is clearly spelled out in the text, and which is expected to inform player decisions (which seasoned DMs know better than to expect ;-)

I had the characters start out in the town, at the tavern. With the village under rapid assault they had to decide what to do (save someone nearby, race to the keep, etc). Worked out well, but one player was keen to sneak out of town and flee, which is logical.

I've been considering a prequel sequence, maybe starting in Baldur's Gate, to set up the PCs' journey to Greenest and hopefully get them to level 3 so that the early fights won't be so tough. I'm also hoping it might motivate the players to have their characters aid in the town's defense. But I haven't decided yet what would be a good setup; it will probably depend in part on which background Bonds the party ends up with.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

I find that a lot of the weirdness in the cult's plans gets explained away if you play up the rival factions and jockeying for power.

Why does Rezmir take the treasure waaaay out of the way? Because she takes it to *her* castle, where *she* can have oversight over the cataloging and appraisal of it. Who cares if there's a dwarf five miles from the Well of Dragons who can do it? Then the dwarf gets the glory, not Rezmir. And she justifies it by having a flying castle bring it in instead of using a ton of manpower to carry it over/through the mountains and into the Well.

 

[koga305]

The deeper issue that you point to, but do not state, is finding a sufficient reason for the *players* to be motivated to go into a village under attack by a dragon. Whereas establishing motive for *characters* can be relatively trivial (backgrounds, alignment, etc), which is clearly spelled out in the text, and which is expected to inform player decisions (which seasoned DMs know better than to expect ;-)

I had the characters start out in the town, at the tavern. With the village under rapid assault they had to decide what to do (save someone nearby, race to the keep, etc). Worked out well, but one player was keen to sneak out of town and flee, which is logical.

Establishing player motive is definitely tricky, and the end fight challenge in episdoe 1 is a risky way to establish Cyanwrath as a memorable foe - a game event that may just as easily result in resentment, the ultimate buzzkill.

Really? As a player, having something awesome like a dragon attack makes me more motivated to get started with an adventure. I'll trust that the DM isn't going to make it too much of a "gotcha" moment, and the chance to be heroes in this kind of situation is something you remember for quite a while.

Likewise, the Cyanwrath challenge got me really excited, because my Barbarian had been trashing everything in the adventure thusfar* and I relished the chance for a "real challenge." And it made our "rematch" in Episode 3 all the sweeter.

*Admittedly, the character was part of an Extra Life charity event and thanks to significant donations, got to start at level 2 with a set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power.