D&D 5E Illusionist - is it as weak as it seems?

[cormanthor]

I must clarify some things from my original post. I am not saying that wizards are weak (any of them). With access to [their selection of] hundreds of spells, they are far from weak. But...
If I wanted to play a wizard, what would compel me to pick the School of Illusion over pretty much any other school? It's not the spells, since all wizards have access. It has to be the granted powers of the specialization. The ones for illusion seem pretty lackluster.

Your first power doubles the effectiveness of your cantrip. Nice, but compared to the other schools, that isn't much. Abjuration (a shield), Conjuration (a new cantrip), Enchantment (a personal power), etc. Divination is the only one comparably weak here.
Your second power can be duplicated by any wizard by recasting the spell. Out of all of the affected illusion spells, a half dozen or so are only 1 action to cast (thus only saving you the spell slot, and sometimes only for a very short time). You can't make the illusion change in a way that the spell would not normally allow (such as simulating an earthquake with mirage arcane). That really guts this power if you ask me. It could be great if not so heavily restricted.
Your third power is fine, I have no issue with it.
But the fourth power can make a bridge that a giant can jump on, but a barstool can't hit someone for damage? At 14^th level? I can reverse gravity and plane shift and make a solid illusory 1 square mile castle, but I can't start a bar fight?

These are the reasons I felt that the powers needed changes. And the save disadvantage bonus isn't asking much for illusions IMHO.

 

[steeldragons]

If I wanted to play a wizard, what would compel me to pick the School of Illusion over pretty much any other school? It's not the spells, since all wizards have access. It has to be the granted powers of the specialization.

Well, no. "It has to be..." because you want to play/have an idea for a character who is an illusionist. That is the reason.

The ones for illusion seem pretty lackluster.

Your first power doubles the effectiveness of your cantrip. Nice, but compared to the other schools, that isn't much. Abjuration (a shield), Conjuration (a new cantrip), Enchantment (a personal power), etc. Divination is the only one comparably weak here.

<emphasis mine>
If dictating/changing the outcome of two d20 dice rolls is "comparatively weak", then you and I, sir, have very different definitions of what "weak" is.

But really, as you say, it's nice. And if you already have Minor Illusion, which truthfully I can not imagine any mage with an eye toward Illusionist would not, you get to pick something else...and the Minor Illusion still gives you sight and sound. So really you're getting an extra and a half.

Your second power can be duplicated by any wizard by recasting the spell. Out of all of the affected illusion spells, a half dozen or so are only 1 action to cast (thus only saving you the spell slot, and sometimes only for a very short time). You can't make the illusion change in a way that the spell would not normally allow (such as simulating an earthquake with mirage arcane). That really guts this power if you ask me. It could be great if not so heavily restricted.

Yeah. This is my first real look at it and...What does it even mean?

You "change the nature of the illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion),..." What does that mean? At 6th level, we're talking about stuff like Invisibility, Mirror Image and Major Image. How does one "change the nature" of these spells? What is "changing the nature" of these spells?

Your third power is fine, I have no issue with it.

But the fourth power can make a bridge that a giant can jump on, but a barstool can't hit someone for damage? At 14^th level? I can reverse gravity and plane shift and make a solid illusory 1 square mile castle, but I can't start a bar fight?

Well, now, this is a matter of interpretation, I think...as so much illusion magic is. I'll grant you it is a poorly conceived/written power. To state you use shadow-stuff to make your illusion "real" and, in the next breath, say it can not deal damage is immersion breaking/makes no sense. Considering the thing only exists for 1 minute anyway, I would be inclined to houserule this to permit damage.

HOWEVER, the power is used in conjunction wit hone of your illusion spells. So, seems to me, it is entirely reasonable that you could Phantasmal Force up a barstool. Strike someone with it. It is shadow-real. It hits them. It smashes into pieces and clatters to the floor. By virtue of the Phantasmal Force spell, given the target fails their save, they take d6 damage...just from the spell not the power. If they make their save, they still see and feel the barstool...cuz it's "real" ya see?...they just don't take damage from it. Either way, I'm pretty sure your bar fight is going to get started.

These are the reasons I felt that the powers needed changes. And the save disadvantage bonus isn't asking much for illusions IMHO.

No. I don't think that's too much to ask at all. I'd perhaps make the adjustment that you can only impose disadvantage against one target. I'd probably swap out the 6th level power for this. 6th level seems like a high enough level that the illusionist should start making their illusions more perfected/tougher to resist. Make it, like, +1 additional target at 10th and 14th and call it a day.

 

[cormanthor]

If dictating/changing the outcome of two d20 dice rolls is "comparatively weak", then you and I, sir, have very different definitions of what "weak" is.

I only meant that you have as good of a chance at wasting them as snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Since it happens before the roll, the roll could have been in your favor anyway. Not a big issue, but a hit against it.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Uhh...while, yes, Illusory Reality is heavily open to or reliant upon DM interpretation it is also quite a sickeningly powerful ability. Not all of the game is about dealing direct damage. Consider - Illusory reality allows one to turn 1st level spell slots into wall spells. Or cages. And since image spells don't offer saves....

 

[steeldragons]

Well, also consider what is a 14th level illusionist going up against that a wall or a cage is going to really be a problem for?

Yes. You can make a bridge for yourself and your friends...long as it doesn't take more than a minute to cross. Might give you a rock to stand on instead of falling into the lava...for a minute. Sock some enemies away in a cage...for a minute, if it is of some material and/or those caged aren't strong enough to escape it. A wall to provide cover...or shut off a corridor from reinforcements or provide support so the cavern doesn't collapse...for a minute.

I'd say it is a very useful and, yes, powerful ability. At 14th level it should be.

But it's not overly so, taken in consideration the kinds of situations a 14th or higher level PC is going to be dealing with.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Illusory Reality is insanely powerful, even in combat if you think of the Illusionist as more control then as a damage dealer.

Cast an Illusion of a wall and make it real ...

My main problem is that the limits on illusory reality make your illusion directly unrealistic. If you fall in an Illusory reality pit, for instance, you take no damage. If you run into an Illusory reality door with your face, you take no damage. If you are hit by an illusory sword... etc.

I think it kind of needs to be able to deal damage in order to maintain it's illusion, and pegging that damage to (at most) the same as if the illusionist spent his action casting a cantrip is probably the best way to balance it.

That whole "change the nature of the illusion" needs some concrete examples. Personally I would just change it to "your illusion spells work on creatures with blindsight", because that seems like the first thing someone training hard to use illusions would do, and seems to match some of the other wizard power levels.

After that you need a DM that doesn't assume that mindless creatures and creatures with mundane blindsight (ie - bats) are immune to illusion and the illusionist is a strong pick.

 

[koga305]

Hm, couldn't Illusory Reality be used in a "Cartoon Physics" sort of way as well? A silent image spell could function as passwall, and then you dispel it leaving no way to get through. I'd be inclined to allow that as a DM, although that raises another issue - what if I create an illusory pit (in solid stone), someone falls in it, and then I dispel the illusion?

 

[steeldragons]

Hm, couldn't Illusory Reality be used in a "Cartoon Physics" sort of way as well? A silent image spell could function as passwall, and then you dispel it leaving no way to get through. I'd be inclined to allow that as a DM, although that raises another issue - what if I create an illusory pit (in solid stone), someone falls in it, and then I dispel the illusion?

I'd say they pop up out of the ground/pit at the moment the pit ceases to exist. Doesn't seem like any kind of issue.

If you're still in the middle of solid stone when you dispel that silent image "real" tunnel...mmmmm I suppose it would depend which direction is the closest open air for you to pop back into...if that happens to be out the side of a cliff or halfway up a tower [i.e. a silent image of a flight of stairs leading up a tunnel inside the tower wall, so you're not seen by the guards)...gonna be some problems.

...since Illusory Reality can't deal damage....but a fall certainly could.

 

[Shasarak]

If I was an illusionist the last thing I would want to be known for was being an illusionist. Illusions are subtle. Use them as needed. Illusionists should also use flaming sphere as needed too.

If I was a 5e Illusionist then I would make sure everyone knew.

Especially when you can mix and match spells freely, no one will be able to tell if they are going to be hit with an illusion or not.

 

[PnPgamer]

Well, no. "It has to be..." because you want to play/have an idea for a character who is an illusionist. That is the reason.



<emphasis mine>
If dictating/changing the outcome of two d20 dice rolls is "comparatively weak", then you and I, sir, have very different definitions of what "weak" is.

But really, as you say, it's nice. And if you already have Minor Illusion, which truthfully I can not imagine any mage with an eye toward Illusionist would not, you get to pick something else...and the Minor Illusion still gives you sight and sound. So really you're getting an extra and a half.



Yeah. This is my first real look at it and...What does it even mean?

You "change the nature of the illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion),..." What does that mean? At 6th level, we're talking about stuff like Invisibility, Mirror Image and Major Image. How does one "change the nature" of these spells? What is "changing the nature" of these spells?



Well, now, this is a matter of interpretation, I think...as so much illusion magic is. I'll grant you it is a poorly conceived/written power. To state you use shadow-stuff to make your illusion "real" and, in the next breath, say it can not deal damage is immersion breaking/makes no sense. Considering the thing only exists for 1 minute anyway, I would be inclined to houserule this to permit damage.

HOWEVER, the power is used in conjunction wit hone of your illusion spells. So, seems to me, it is entirely reasonable that you could Phantasmal Force up a barstool. Strike someone with it. It is shadow-real. It hits them. It smashes into pieces and clatters to the floor. By virtue of the Phantasmal Force spell, given the target fails their save, they take d6 damage...just from the spell not the power. If they make their save, they still see and feel the barstool...cuz it's "real" ya see?...they just don't take damage from it. Either way, I'm pretty sure your bar fight is going to get started.



No. I don't think that's too much to ask at all. I'd perhaps make the adjustment that you can only impose disadvantage against one target. I'd probably swap out the 6th level power for this. 6th level seems like a high enough level that the illusionist should start making their illusions more perfected/tougher to resist. Make it, like, +1 additional target at 10th and 14th and call it a day.

I think the damage negation portion is to prevent illusions of huge meteors falling from sky, doing 120d10 damage. Or other stuff like that.