D&D 5E Chucking daggers: how do we throw two?

I just quoted you a definition; the table is an illustration.

stuff
On what on authority do you claim the table is an illustration? The table is the only thing that actually categorizes weapons into ranged or melee.
In any case:
1) I don't care about whether or not your interpretation breaks the game, only whether or not it is correct.

2) My example did not depend on the usage of animals, but I'll restate in the most general form to avoid similar confusion going forward.
The statement, "A is B", does not imply "B is A". "B is A" might be true and I'm sure you can think of some examples where it is, but you cannot say that "B is A" simply from the statement that "A is B". In this particular case, you cannot say that because ranged weapons are used to attack at distance that anything used to attack at distance is a ranged weapon. This is actually plainly untrue in the context of the game since spells can be used to attack at distance and they are clearly not ranged weapons.
 

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First and foremost: I hope everyone in this thread is having fun - I'm not trying to criticize or demean anyone. The goal of a discussion or argument (not a fight :)) is clarity - that's all. Please have fun, I am.

On what on authority do you claim the table is an illustration? The table is the only thing that actually categorizes weapons into ranged or melee.
No authority, just the definition of definition. The line I quoted from the PHB is just that, a "formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc." (from dictionary.com). In the English language, if someone asks: "What is a cherry?", the typical response would be in the form "A cherry is ..." Just like the quote from the PHB.

1) I don't care about whether or not your interpretation breaks the game, only whether or not it is correct.
I care about what is correct, also. But when adjudicating the game, especially 5e, if it takes referencing 5 different pages in three different books (hyperbole, forgive me:) ) and looking up the definition of 'definition', it is much easier to ask "Will this break the game?"

2) The statement, "A is B", does not imply "B is A". "B is A" might be true and I'm sure you can think of some examples where it is, but you cannot say that "B is A" simply from the statement that "A is B". In this particular case, you cannot say that because ranged weapons are used to attack at distance that anything used to attack at distance is a ranged weapon. This is actually plainly untrue in the context of the game since spells can be used to attack at distance and they are clearly not ranged weapons.
I get that. It's all good :) But that is not what I am arguing...

You seem to arguing that a weapon has to belong to EITHER the set of melee weapons OR the set of ranged weapons. I am arguing that a weapon can belong BOTH, depending on usage.
To illustrate :) ...

just because thing A belongs to the set B, does not mean that thing A cannot also belong to set C
 

First and foremost: I hope everyone in this thread is having fun - I'm not trying to criticize or demean anyone. The goal of a discussion or argument (not a fight :)) is clarity - that's all. Please have fun, I am.


No authority, just the definition of definition. The line I quoted from the PHB is just that, a "formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc." (from dictionary.com). In the English language, if someone asks: "What is a cherry?", the typical response would be in the form "A cherry is ..." Just like the quote from the PHB.

I care about what is correct, also. But when adjudicating the game, especially 5e, if it takes referencing 5 different pages in three different books (hyperbole, forgive me:) ) and looking up the definition of 'definition', it is much easier to ask "Will this break the game?"

I get that. It's all good :) But that is not what I am arguing...

You seem to arguing that a weapon has to belong to EITHER the set of melee weapons OR the set of ranged weapons. I am arguing that a weapon can belong BOTH, depending on usage.
To illustrate :) ...

just because thing A belongs to the set B, does not mean that thing A cannot also belong to set C

I don't think the rules rule out the possibility of a weapon being both ranged and melee, but they do say that none of the weapons actually listed in this book have both those properties (via the table). If this list does not indicate that weapons not listed as ranged are in fact not ranged, then how I can tell my warlock player that the spells not listed in the warlock spell list are not spells his warlock can use. It can't be that some lists are true categorizations and other lists are just suggestions? Similarly how do I know that the dagger doesn't have the heavy and/or versatile properties if the list only represents a suggestions of some of the dagger's properties.
 

Because the rules specifically reference the lists "choose a spell from any class list", etc...

The weapons section doesn't do that, it specifically states how each type is defined. It then has a list, which details the attributes and abilities of each weapon. That information is not presented anywhere else. There is no text entry for "dagger", for instance. If the table is taken as the 'definition' of weapon type, the the sentence I quoted would be superfluous. Yet it is included, complete with bolted text to call out the two sets of weapons. Why would we need that if we had the table, unless that information were relevant.

An interpretation that allows weapons to belong to either set depending on use, encompasses both the sentence and the table.
 

An interpretation that allows weapons to belong to either set depending on use, encompasses both the sentence and the table.

However, if you use only the bolded text to determine what type of weapon is being used, then any ranged weapon used within 5 feet of an enemy necessarily becomes a melee weapon, despite still being used to make a ranged weapon attack. Unless firing an arrow from a bow at an enemy within 5 feet of you counts as a melee weapon attack (hence ignoring your disadvantage for making a ranged weapon attack while a hostile creature is within 5 feet of you), because it would become a melee weapon based on the circumstances.

Be warned: long post ahead taking every piece of relevant information (that I can find, I may have missed something) about weapon attacks and throwing them into the "specific beats general" mindset.

[SBLOCK]Let's find the definition of weapons, then put it into the basis of "specific beats general". At the beginning of the Weapons category, it's stated that every weapon is either a melee weapon or ranged weapon. It is also stated that melee weapons are used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, while a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.

Right here we have two general rules about weapons. Barring any specific cases, these two facts must be true:
1. Every weapon is classified as either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
2. Every melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, while every ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.

In the "Weapon Proficiency" section, no text provides further clarification; the above two points still stand. However, we get to the "Weapon Properties" section and a few specific rules show up which contradict the second of the previous statements:
3. If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon; that is, it deals 1d4 damage and requires a separate proficiency.
4. A weapon with the reach property adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it; that is, a melee weapon with reach can be used to attack a creature within 10 feet instead of 5.
5. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would for a melee attack with the weapon.

Point 5 brings up a question as to the inherent differences between a melee attack and a ranged attack: we must now find general rules that state these differences so that we can understand what, exactly, this specific rule beats. In Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores, we find:

6. You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin. You use melee weapons to make melee attacks in hand-to-hand combat, and some of them can be thrown to make a ranged attack.
7. You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, such as a sling or a longbow. You can also add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon that has the finesse property, such as a dagger or rapier.

We can see that the book distinguishes between melee weapons and melee weapon attacks, as well as ranged weapons and ranged weapon attacks. Although ranged weapons are primarily used to make ranged weapon attacks and melee weapons are primarily used to make melee weapon attacks, there are some cases where ranged weapons are used to make melee weapon attacks and some where melee weapons are used to make ranged weapon attacks. We can also see a fourth specific rule from point 7: weapons with the finesse property can use Dexterity as their ability modifier for melee attacks.

General rule 1: Every weapon is classified as either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
General rule 2: Every melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, while every ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
General rule 3: You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin. You use melee weapons to make melee attacks in hand-to-hand combat, and some of them can be thrown to make a ranged attack.
General rule 4: You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, such as a sling or a longbow. You can also add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon that has the finesse property, such as a dagger or rapier.

Specific rule 1: If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon; that is, it deals 1d4 damage and requires a separate proficiency.
Specific rule 2: A weapon with the reach property adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it; that is, a melee weapon with reach can be used to attack a creature within 10 feet instead of 5.
Specific rule 3: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would for a melee attack with the weapon.
Specific rule 4: When making an attack with the finesse property, you use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for your attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.

Ramifications of Specific rule 1: This means that General rule 2 must not necessarily be true, because a ranged weapon can be used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, making a melee attack.
Ramifications of Specific rule 2: This also means the part of General rule 2 regarding melee weapons is not necessarily true, because not every melee weapon must be used to attack a target within 5 feet of you.
Ramifications of Specific rule 3: This, in conjunction with Specific rules 1 and 2, makes General rule 2 entirely obsolete; some melee weapons can be used to make a ranged attack against targets not necessarily within 5 feet of you.
Ramifications of Specific rule 4: With General rule 4 making an allowance for the finesse property, this rule simply stops General rule 3 from encompassing all melee weapons.

The table of weapons acts as a specific rule, and is the only place where the assumptions of General rule 1 might be challenged. However, lacking any specific instances where a weapon is considered both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon, we are forced to conclude that General rule 1 is true in all cases: every weapon is either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, regardless of whether it's currently being used to make a melee weapon attack or a ranged weapon attack.

Thus, we have the following rules regarding weapons and weapon attacks:
1. Every weapon is either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
2. You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon, whether the attack is a melee attack or ranged attack. If a weapon has the finesse property, you use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for its attack and damage rolls.
3. You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack and damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, whether the attack is a ranged attack or a melee attack. If a weapon has the finesse property, you use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for its attack and damage rolls.
4. A ranged weapon with the ammunition property used to make a melee attack is considered an improvised weapon, and uses the rules described therein.
[/SBLOCK]

Phew, glad that's done with. I'm afraid that no weapon can belong to the subsets of both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon; the rules are extremely clear on that. The reason the bolded text you called out is there is to give a(n extremely) rough guideline as to what ranged and melee weapons are before going into further detail later on in the book.
 

A ranged weapon is a weapon that is expressly used for ranged attacks, ie it cannot also be used as melee weapon (barring feats etc).

A melee weapon that is thrown is treated as a ranged weapon for adjudicating its effect, but does not change the weapon from a melee to a ranged weapon.

Does this help, or hinder the situation? :)
 

A ranged weapon is a weapon that is expressly used for ranged attacks, ie it cannot also be used as melee weapon (barring feats etc).
Okay, so how about if we say throwing daggers are balanced specifically for throwing and can't be used effectively in melee without a feat?

Come to think of it, is that how throwing axes are treated?
 

Wouldn't you be better off changing the various "with a melee/ranged weapon" text in feats to "with a melee/ranged attack". It makes sense to get sharpshooter bonuses whenever you make a ranged attack. It doesn't make sense to not get them when you make a ranged attack with something that also happens to be useable in melee.
 

Wouldn't you be better off changing the various "with a melee/ranged weapon" text in feats to "with a melee/ranged attack". It makes sense to get sharpshooter bonuses whenever you make a ranged attack. It doesn't make sense to not get them when you make a ranged attack with something that also happens to be useable in melee.
Now, don't you go bringing sense into this....

;)
 

Wouldn't you be better off changing the various "with a melee/ranged weapon" text in feats to "with a melee/ranged attack". It makes sense to get sharpshooter bonuses whenever you make a ranged attack. It doesn't make sense to not get them when you make a ranged attack with something that also happens to be useable in melee.

Not necessarily; if you consider Ranged Weapons to be weapons that are designed to be used at range, while melee/thrown weapons are designed to be used in melee, but can be 'improvised' to be used at range.

Feats such as 'sharpshooter' seem to require a certain amount of 'quality' in the weapons being used, thus none of the 'improvised' melee weapons.

Think of the difference between the D6 thrown spear, and the D6 thrown javelin. One is designed for melee, but can be thrown if needed, the other is designed for throwing.
This may reveal itself in weight, or balance, or aerodynamics, or whatever.


Not saying this is what was intended, not saying this is how it should or should not work... just giving one perspective where the rules make sense.
 

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